Need help big time!

Walt · 01-24-2002, 10:46 PM

Hi folks,

ReadÃ?Â*a lot andÃ?Â*write a little having only one Luger in my collection, but need help trying to get a valuation on the rascal. Getting up in years, decided it was time to inventory and appraise my weapons collection and all went fine until I ran into a dead end with the Luger. You older forum contributors will remember it as the piece you helped me identify last year as an early Krieghoff double date beginning life as a 1917 DWM artillary and ending up with the Dresden police after going through a Krieghoff rework.Unfortunately, after dozens of E-mails to dealers and appraisers around the country, no one has been able to verify the existence of any early Krieghoff reworks ever receiving the Weimar acceptance date and going over to the military or police. John Allen from Blue Book wasÃ?Â*one individual who tried to help me with this, but evenÃ?Â*their extensive reference library turned up nothing, and in his words, his personal contacts were 'skeptical'of the weapons existence. Most of my queries to prime dealers such as Simpson, were simply ignored.

Fortunately, Rick K. of the forum has a virtually identical piece other than the police grip I.D., but his has been the only other Luger I've found in some two years of searching with the horizonal crown N's on the right side of the frame and receiver as well as the double date. Info from several sources good enough to respond stated unequivicably that records indicate all early Krieghoffs wereÃ?Â*reworked for commercial use only with noneÃ?Â*going to the military or police. By the way, after the conclusion was reached that these markings wereÃ?Â*indeed early Krieghoff, they were verified as such by a photo to Ralph Shattuck. Soooo, although with the assistance of Bill M., Thor and others, I'm reasonably certain of my Lugers lineage and history, it has proven impossible to get a valuation as the thing is not suppossed to exist. Any help in putting this thing to bed would be greatly appreciated.

tom · 01-25-2002, 01:55 AM

Hi Walt,

Valuation on "one of a kind" pieces is always very simple...it is worth exactly what the market will bear...what someone is willing to pay for it and what you are willing to take for it.

Having written that platitude, I realize it does little to solve your problem.!

As you have doubtless read here and elsewhere, condition is everything. Assuming your gun is a hither to fore unknown variant, it SHOULD be worth something close to what a very similar, but documented piece, in the same or nearly the same condition is worth.

I think *part* of your problem may lay in terminology. Luger heads are notiorious for using imprecise jargon, but you probably knew that.

Heinrich Kreighoff who got the famous Luftwaffe contract, was the SECOND kreighoff..his father Ludwig had been partner in Sempert and Kreighoff, which, upon Ludwigs death was subsumed by the younger Kreighoff's firm. During the period between 1924 (ludwig's death) and 1939 when HK acquired the Simpson tooling, the firm dealt in Walther Number 4 pistols and DWM P-08s. It seems very reasonable; hell, down right logical, to believe that your piece is from this less well known period in the kreighoff Company history.

Likewise, since new pistol production of 9MM pistols was strictly controlled by the Allied Inspection committee, it is not a long leap of faith to postulate that a Kreighoff re-work of a DWM artillery frame is likely.

Having said all that, the bottom line is there is *often* more history than what one reads in books, especially if one only reads a few books and does no independent research.

My two cents; hope it helps..

Tom

01-25-2002, 03:28 AM

I`ve seen the horizontal proof on reworks. I`ve heard it means Kreighoff and also heard it means Erfurt. Erfurt makes more sense as they were set up to produce Lugers at that time, but it could have been a rework done by any firm in Germany?

I don`t see how anyone could prove it, one way or the other unless there is another stamp on the gun to prove it was Krieghoff?

If not, You are going to have a tough time proving it is a Krieghoff [and not just another Erfurt] in order to get a premium for it?

The shadow

Walt · 01-25-2002, 09:49 AM

Appreciate the info. Gun has been pretty well verified as Krieghoff rework due to the location of the horizontal crown N not only on the right side of the receiver but also on theÃ?Â*right frame rail, apparently a Krieghoff exclusive. The good folks on the forum debated this long and hard for me and further verification was obtained from Ralph Shattuck and a couple of phone calls to Ralph Still in Alaska. Always room for error in these things, but all available info leads to an early Krieghoff. Guess as Tom says, it'll beÃ?Â*worth whatever someoneÃ?Â*wants to payÃ?Â*for an odd-ball variant. God only knows, there's enough strangeness out there in the wonderful world of Lugers.

Bob in AZ · 01-25-2002, 10:38 AM

My DWM double-date 1917/1920 has horizontal Crown N on the receiver and frame right side. It also has RC/Crown stamped on the barrel and toggle. This I am told is Erfurt for sure. Pretty much confirm what the Showdow is saying.

BTW, it also has sear safety and police stampings on lower frame. Posted info on this gun about a month ago, interesting Luger.

Bob

P.S.Think Luger Fest 2002!

Walt · 01-25-2002, 04:28 PM

Not necessarily, Bob. According to my conversation with Jan Still, although the great majority of crown RC's were used by Erfurt, DWM did indeed use the marking sparingly. He pointed out a DWM navy artillery in his personal collection which has the crown RC. It is also mentioned in Constanzo's "World of Luger Proof Marks" as being used by

DWM to indicate arsenal repair and reissue, rather than the out of tolerance mark utilized by Erfurt. Since you have the third one with theÃ?Â*dual horizontal crown N's on the right side that I've been able to locate, there has got to be a specific reference to this out there somewhere.

Thanks much for your info. By theÃ?Â*way, both mine and Rick's bear the same 1917/1920 double dates as yours and both are ex-DWM artillery's.

Rick K · 01-26-2002, 12:58 AM

Hello guys. I just wanted to remind my friend Walt, that my double dated Luger is a 1916/1920 instead of 1917/1920. The photos are in the owners' corner under Rick K. Mine has a horizontal crown N on the right side of the barrel and an RC/Crown on the left side. All of the markings are fairly clear in the photos. Note the eagle on the trigger guard.

Regards,

Rick K

01-24-2002, 10:46 PM	#1
Walt User Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Need help big time! Hi folks, ReadÃ?Âa lot andÃ?Âwrite a little having only one Luger in my collection, but need help trying to get a valuation on the rascal. Getting up in years, decided it was time to inventory and appraise my weapons collection and all went fine until I ran into a dead end with the Luger. You older forum contributors will remember it as the piece you helped me identify last year as an early Krieghoff double date beginning life as a 1917 DWM artillary and ending up with the Dresden police after going through a Krieghoff rework.Unfortunately, after dozens of E-mails to dealers and appraisers around the country, no one has been able to verify the existence of any early Krieghoff reworks ever receiving the Weimar acceptance date and going over to the military or police. John Allen from Blue Book wasÃ?Âone individual who tried to help me with this, but evenÃ?Âtheir extensive reference library turned up nothing, and in his words, his personal contacts were 'skeptical'of the weapons existence. Most of my queries to prime dealers such as Simpson, were simply ignored. Fortunately, Rick K. of the forum has a virtually identical piece other than the police grip I.D., but his has been the only other Luger I've found in some two years of searching with the horizonal crown N's on the right side of the frame and receiver as well as the double date. Info from several sources good enough to respond stated unequivicably that records indicate all early Krieghoffs wereÃ?Âreworked for commercial use only with noneÃ?Âgoing to the military or police. By the way, after the conclusion was reached that these markings wereÃ?Â*indeed early Krieghoff, they were verified as such by a photo to Ralph Shattuck. Soooo, although with the assistance of Bill M., Thor and others, I'm reasonably certain of my Lugers lineage and history, it has proven impossible to get a valuation as the thing is not suppossed to exist. Any help in putting this thing to bed would be greatly appreciated.

01-25-2002, 01:55 AM	#2
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Need help big time! (Long) Hi Walt, Valuation on "one of a kind" pieces is always very simple...it is worth exactly what the market will bear...what someone is willing to pay for it and what you are willing to take for it. Having written that platitude, I realize it does little to solve your problem.! As you have doubtless read here and elsewhere, condition is everything. Assuming your gun is a hither to fore unknown variant, it SHOULD be worth something close to what a very similar, but documented piece, in the same or nearly the same condition is worth. I think part of your problem may lay in terminology. Luger heads are notiorious for using imprecise jargon, but you probably knew that. Heinrich Kreighoff who got the famous Luftwaffe contract, was the SECOND kreighoff..his father Ludwig had been partner in Sempert and Kreighoff, which, upon Ludwigs death was subsumed by the younger Kreighoff's firm. During the period between 1924 (ludwig's death) and 1939 when HK acquired the Simpson tooling, the firm dealt in Walther Number 4 pistols and DWM P-08s. It seems very reasonable; hell, down right logical, to believe that your piece is from this less well known period in the kreighoff Company history. Likewise, since new pistol production of 9MM pistols was strictly controlled by the Allied Inspection committee, it is not a long leap of faith to postulate that a Kreighoff re-work of a DWM artillery frame is likely. Having said all that, the bottom line is there is often more history than what one reads in books, especially if one only reads a few books and does no independent research. My two cents; hope it helps.. Tom

01-25-2002, 03:28 AM	#3
The Shadow Knows Guest Posts: n/a	Krieghoff reworks I`ve seen the horizontal proof on reworks. I`ve heard it means Kreighoff and also heard it means Erfurt. Erfurt makes more sense as they were set up to produce Lugers at that time, but it could have been a rework done by any firm in Germany? I don`t see how anyone could prove it, one way or the other unless there is another stamp on the gun to prove it was Krieghoff? If not, You are going to have a tough time proving it is a Krieghoff [and not just another Erfurt] in order to get a premium for it? The shadow

01-25-2002, 09:49 AM	#4
Walt User Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Krieghoff reworks Appreciate the info. Gun has been pretty well verified as Krieghoff rework due to the location of the horizontal crown N not only on the right side of the receiver but also on theÃ?Âright frame rail, apparently a Krieghoff exclusive. The good folks on the forum debated this long and hard for me and further verification was obtained from Ralph Shattuck and a couple of phone calls to Ralph Still in Alaska. Always room for error in these things, but all available info leads to an early Krieghoff. Guess as Tom says, it'll beÃ?Âworth whatever someoneÃ?Âwants to payÃ?Âfor an odd-ball variant. God only knows, there's enough strangeness out there in the wonderful world of Lugers.

01-25-2002, 10:38 AM	#5
Bob in AZ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 66 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re:Horizontal Crown N My DWM double-date 1917/1920 has horizontal Crown N on the receiver and frame right side. It also has RC/Crown stamped on the barrel and toggle. This I am told is Erfurt for sure. Pretty much confirm what the Showdow is saying. BTW, it also has sear safety and police stampings on lower frame. Posted info on this gun about a month ago, interesting Luger. Bob P.S.Think Luger Fest 2002!

01-25-2002, 04:28 PM	#6
Walt User Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re:Horizontal Crown N Not necessarily, Bob. According to my conversation with Jan Still, although the great majority of crown RC's were used by Erfurt, DWM did indeed use the marking sparingly. He pointed out a DWM navy artillery in his personal collection which has the crown RC. It is also mentioned in Constanzo's "World of Luger Proof Marks" as being used by DWM to indicate arsenal repair and reissue, rather than the out of tolerance mark utilized by Erfurt. Since you have the third one with theÃ?Âdual horizontal crown N's on the right side that I've been able to locate, there has got to be a specific reference to this out there somewhere. Thanks much for your info. By theÃ?Âway, both mine and Rick's bear the same 1917/1920 double dates as yours and both are ex-DWM artillery's.

01-26-2002, 12:58 AM	#7
Rick K User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Cochran, GA Posts: 305 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re:Horizontal Crown N Hello guys. I just wanted to remind my friend Walt, that my double dated Luger is a 1916/1920 instead of 1917/1920. The photos are in the owners' corner under Rick K. Mine has a horizontal crown N on the right side of the barrel and an RC/Crown on the left side. All of the markings are fairly clear in the photos. Note the eagle on the trigger guard. Regards, Rick K