Short Barrel Artillery

Hugo Borchardt · 09-01-2011, 10:12 AM

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...1c338b45cb3562

At first I thought it a Martz gun. Barrel is numbered. Did someone go through trouble to shorten the barrel?

Why would anyone bother to do this?

Clark

nukem556 · 09-01-2011, 10:57 AM

Clark, I saw that too....strange modification....you end up with a Luger with half the sight radius it should have. I certainly wouldnt give that kinda money for it!

Edward Tinker · 09-01-2011, 02:09 PM

Interesting, you hear about barrels would be shortened to meet the Versailles officials, but have never seen one shortened like that.

I have seen them like 1 inch shorter....

Seems a bit of money to me too for one modified?

Ed

Norme · 09-01-2011, 02:47 PM

Hi Clark, Many Imperial Navies were shortened in just that way, but this is the first Artillery I've seen modified like that. Usually you see them with replaced barrels and rear toggles. Regards, Norm

CAP Black · 09-01-2011, 02:58 PM

It looks like the kind of thing someone would do by computer using photoshop or whatever, just as a gimmick. But to actually do that to a nice gun is awful. Any collector would have to be as goofy as the people who screwed that gun up. Does the work appear to have been done professionally? What a shame.

Norme · 09-01-2011, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAP Black

It looks like the kind of thing someone would do by computer using photoshop or whatever, just as a gimmick. But to actually do that to a nice gun is awful. Any collector would have to be as goofy as the people who screwed that gun up. Does the work appear to have been done professionally? What a shame.

Hi Jack, Yes, it was done professionally, very professionally. Rigorous arms restrictions were imposed upon Germany after WW1 by the victorious allies, one of these was a limit on barrel length. Regards, Norm

George Anderson · 09-01-2011, 07:00 PM

I disagree with Norm on the Versailles Treaty restricting barrel lengths. The treaty did restrict the number of military calibre pistols that could be produced to a number appropriate to sustain the needs of a 100,000 man army and later the national police forces. I believe that the pistol is one that was shortened for either the army or police during the Weimar era simply because the eight inch barrel was deemed unneeded by whatever unit had the weapon.

Norme · 09-01-2011, 07:38 PM

Hi George, I must confess that I have not read the Treaty of Versailles, but I have read "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers" by Jan C. Still. Still states, on page 12, that the IMKK interpreted the Treaty as restricting military pistols to a barrel length of less than 100mm. Of course, we all know that these restrictions were widely ignored. Best regards, Norm

sheepherder · 09-01-2011, 08:12 PM

The correct nomenclature for this Luger is "DWM 1915 Mortar Luger"...

(Because a short artillery piece is a mortar...broadly speaking...)

I know, it's lame...but the best I could come up with...

One of our members here posted pics of his shorty Arty some time back...Looked pretty much the same as this castrated Artillery...(This is the Simpson's)...

MFC · 09-03-2011, 02:33 AM

[QUOTE=postino;200348]The correct nomenclature for this Luger is "DWM 1915 Mortar Luger"...

Definitely sounds better than a "Baby artillery"

.

Edward Tinker · 09-03-2011, 03:20 AM

The Versailles Treaty does not state that the barrel must be shortened, however, as I said, the treaty countries did impose and long barrel lugers were deemed to be undesirable and they had to be turned in.

As examples of how this was accomplished

Quote:

DWM was prohibited from manufacturing military weapons after 1921, and was required to destroy their army-manufacture equipment. They were, however, allowed to manufacture pistols for the German and export commercial market. In the case of the Luger pistol, this was accomplished by simply limiting production to 7.65mm, with barrels shorter than the 100mm (four inches) which had been decreed as the delimiter between commercial and military weapons

This is gathered from several documents and decrees from the IMKK, in association with the Versailles Treaty, but not strictly under the auspices of the Treaty itself.

Ed

MikeP · 09-04-2011, 04:28 AM

Used to be a guy here in Illinois from Peoria that had one of these.
He always had Lugers at shows and always brought it as a curiosity.

He had acquired it from a vet just after WW2.

Looked like a factory job.

Been slmost 40 years since I last saw it.

Lugerdoc · 09-06-2011, 11:43 AM

Clark, I have also seen a couple of these 4" LPO8 conversion, which I agree make no sense with the tangent rear sight on the barrel. My theory on the 7" conversions, is that these were ones with a "frozen up" fine tune front sight, and the easiest correction was to chop them off at the rear of the front sight base and silver soder on a fixed front sight. TH

jcoe · 09-09-2011, 07:34 PM

Here is a similar shortened LP08 that was presented on gunboards. Barrel was reduced with the same technique used to shorten the 1920 red nine barrels.
John
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...highlight=lp08

Hugh · 09-14-2011, 01:22 AM

I have a Baby Artillery that I built, but only cut the bbl to 6" to maintain the correct proportions. Also a Baby Navy with a 4.5" bbl. I will take pictures and post them when I get the chance.

sheepherder · 09-14-2011, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcoe

Here is a similar shortened LP08 that was presented on gunboards. Barrel was reduced with the same technique used to shorten the 1920 red nine barrels.
John
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...highlight=lp08

Pics are missing. Did you save them???

Hugh · 09-15-2011, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben M.

There is a baby artillery in an album in the Members Gallery. You have to go to page 6 to see the album.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/gallery2...serialNumber=2

http://forum.lugerforum.com/gallery2...serialNumber=2

That is Art Buchanan's Baby Arty.

Hugh · 09-16-2011, 12:37 AM

Here are pictures of my Baby Arty, Baby Navy, & Baby Armies:

jcoe · 09-20-2011, 01:30 AM

Here are some pictures of DWM 1917 LP08 7029e with barrel shortened to 4.5 inches (http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...highlight=lp08).
In addition to cut and sleeve of the barrel and front sight, the barrel stub was also turned down, apparently to approximate the barrel diameter to the front sight sleeve diameter. Picture 3 compares barrel of 7029e to another unaltered 1917 LP08. From point A to B, diameter of 7029 barrel goes from 15.75 to 15.00 mm whereas normal barrel progressed from 15.80 to 15.25 mm. Picture 4 shows light milling marks on barrel of 7029. The joint of barrel stub and sight sleeve was concentric and nice (picture 5) although the sight sleeve was slightly smaller (14.70 vrs 15.00). Picture 6 of the muzzle of 7029, shows the 1 mm peripheral rim of the sight sleeve that barely catches a fingernail. This looks like a lot of work by what I would assume was a experienced machinist.
John

09-01-2011, 10:12 AM	#1
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 370 Thanks: 340 Thanked 133 Times in 47 Posts	Short Barrel Artillery http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...1c338b45cb3562 At first I thought it a Martz gun. Barrel is numbered. Did someone go through trouble to shorten the barrel? Why would anyone bother to do this? Clark __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm

09-01-2011, 02:09 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Interesting, you hear about barrels would be shortened to meet the Versailles officials, but have never seen one shortened like that. I have seen them like 1 inch shorter.... Seems a bit of money to me too for one modified? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-01-2011, 08:12 PM	#9
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	The correct nomenclature for this Luger is *"DWM 1915 Mortar Luger"*... (Because a short artillery piece is a mortar...broadly speaking...) I know, it's lame...but the best I could come up with... One of our members here posted pics of his shorty Arty some time back...Looked pretty much the same as this castrated Artillery...(This is the Simpson's)... Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

09-03-2011, 02:33 AM	#10
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	[QUOTE=postino;200348]The correct nomenclature for this Luger is *"DWM 1915 Mortar Luger"*... Definitely sounds better than a "Baby artillery" . __________________ Mike C.

09-06-2011, 11:43 AM	#13
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Clark, I have also seen a couple of these 4" LPO8 conversion, which I agree make no sense with the tangent rear sight on the barrel. My theory on the 7" conversions, is that these were ones with a "frozen up" fine tune front sight, and the easiest correction was to chop them off at the rear of the front sight base and silver soder on a fixed front sight. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

09-01-2011, 10:57 AM	#2
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Clark, I saw that too....strange modification....you end up with a Luger with half the sight radius it should have. I certainly wouldnt give that kinda money for it!

09-01-2011, 02:47 PM	#4
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Clark, Many Imperial Navies were shortened in just that way, but this is the first Artillery I've seen modified like that. Usually you see them with replaced barrels and rear toggles. Regards, Norm

09-01-2011, 02:58 PM	#5
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	It looks like the kind of thing someone would do by computer using photoshop or whatever, just as a gimmick. But to actually do that to a nice gun is awful. Any collector would have to be as goofy as the people who screwed that gun up. Does the work appear to have been done professionally? What a shame.

09-01-2011, 07:00 PM	#7
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	I disagree with Norm on the Versailles Treaty restricting barrel lengths. The treaty did restrict the number of military calibre pistols that could be produced to a number appropriate to sustain the needs of a 100,000 man army and later the national police forces. I believe that the pistol is one that was shortened for either the army or police during the Weimar era simply because the eight inch barrel was deemed unneeded by whatever unit had the weapon.

09-01-2011, 07:38 PM	#8
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi George, I must confess that I have not read the Treaty of Versailles, but I have read "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers" by Jan C. Still. Still states, on page 12, that the IMKK interpreted the Treaty as restricting military pistols to a barrel length of less than 100mm. Of course, we all know that these restrictions were widely ignored. Best regards, Norm

09-04-2011, 04:28 AM	#12
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	Used to be a guy here in Illinois from Peoria that had one of these. He always had Lugers at shows and always brought it as a curiosity. He had acquired it from a vet just after WW2. Looked like a factory job. Been slmost 40 years since I last saw it.

09-09-2011, 07:34 PM	#14
jcoe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: mt Posts: 38 Thanks: 13 Thanked 31 Times in 9 Posts	Here is a similar shortened LP08 that was presented on gunboards. Barrel was reduced with the same technique used to shorten the 1920 red nine barrels. John http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...highlight=lp08

09-14-2011, 01:22 AM	#15
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	I have a Baby Artillery that I built, but only cut the bbl to 6" to maintain the correct proportions. Also a Baby Navy with a 4.5" bbl. I will take pictures and post them when I get the chance. __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

09-16-2011, 12:37 AM	#18
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Here are pictures of my Baby Arty, Baby Navy, & Baby Armies: __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

09-20-2011, 01:30 AM	#19
jcoe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: mt Posts: 38 Thanks: 13 Thanked 31 Times in 9 Posts	Here are some pictures of DWM 1917 LP08 7029e with barrel shortened to 4.5 inches (http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...highlight=lp08). In addition to cut and sleeve of the barrel and front sight, the barrel stub was also turned down, apparently to approximate the barrel diameter to the front sight sleeve diameter. Picture 3 compares barrel of 7029e to another unaltered 1917 LP08. From point A to B, diameter of 7029 barrel goes from 15.75 to 15.00 mm whereas normal barrel progressed from 15.80 to 15.25 mm. Picture 4 shows light milling marks on barrel of 7029. The joint of barrel stub and sight sleeve was concentric and nice (picture 5) although the sight sleeve was slightly smaller (14.70 vrs 15.00). Picture 6 of the muzzle of 7029, shows the 1 mm peripheral rim of the sight sleeve that barely catches a fingernail. This looks like a lot of work by what I would assume was a experienced machinist. John Attached Thumbnails