German markings

Mpws · 12-15-2011, 06:02 AM

Was there any circumstances where a WW2 era luger would be used/circulated not having german markings on it -specifically a Mauser made variety ?
From what I read in that time peroid required german proof markings.
Any feedback would be appreciated.

alanint · 12-15-2011, 07:58 AM

By "not having any German marks on it" do you mean NO marks? Because ANY mark placed on a WW2 era Luger would be a German mark.
If you mean nazi era acceptance stamps or other arsenal or factory stamps; there have been pistols that have turned up, which collectors call "lunch box specials" which were smuggled out of the factory in pieces and assembled later. These will bear either no or very few marks.

Mpws · 12-15-2011, 11:44 AM

Yes no german arsenal stamps etc. I am working on the pictures and will post when I have good ones to look at.

Mpws · 01-02-2012, 06:43 AM

I have some decent pictures to look at.

Mpws · 01-02-2012, 06:46 AM

A few more. The straw color is strong but the pictures do not show that.

Edward Tinker · 01-02-2012, 09:31 AM

It is a finished commercial luger that went into military service (see the Mauser banner and exterior marking of the serial numbers).

I would be amazed if there were not at least eagle N markings on it, at least originally it HAD to have them, or it would not have made it into military service. In addition to a single proof Eagle most likely on the barrel right, right receiver or left toggle????

Anything is possible, but very doubtful to me....

Ed

Mpws · 01-02-2012, 11:01 AM

I looked with a magnifying glass along the right side of the gun and left side toggle (except #35 on the pin)and see nothing and there is no indication of metal being removed. I have not diassembled it completely but I see no other markings then what I tried to show in the picutres.
The barrel blue does not match the rest of the gun so would that explain missing marks if it the barrel was replaced ? I hope the pics were ok.

alanint · 01-02-2012, 11:57 AM

Although commercial, would this gun have retained strawing at that late date?

What about the "42" chamber date along with Mauser marked toggle?

rivieraranch · 01-02-2012, 02:02 PM

It would be better to say "markings" because Marks are German currency.

Mpws · 01-02-2012, 03:02 PM

Yes I will use markings in the future. I appreciate the feedback on my post.

MFC · 01-03-2012, 03:11 AM

On page 331 of Hallock and van de Kant's 'The Mauser Parabellum' there is another example and rack mate to your Luger. It is classified as a Mauser Commercial Banner, and is a "late war assembled commercial"...
Serial #9232w, only three guns apart from yours.
No proofs
Military (42) dated receiver and military P.08 coded frame
Square dot betwwen P and 08 on frame indicating 1942 manufacture
Rounded edges of late front toggle link
Strawed parts
Bakelite grips
There is another example with no proofs on page 333 which is very similar. S#9323w. Military (42) dated receiver, but has a rounded dot between the P and 08 on the frame, indicating 1941 manufacture.

Mpws · 01-03-2012, 05:18 AM

A definite square dot after the P

ken d · 01-03-2012, 05:46 PM

Look at the front sight base. It may have an E/N or C/U

Ken D

Mpws · 01-03-2012, 07:47 PM

Without removing the front sight there is no letter pattern as described- but is this because it is not the original barrel ?

MFC · 01-03-2012, 11:17 PM

Hi Michael,
I forgot to mention, both examples I discribed above have barrels stamped with the bore gage only. No serial #'s, like yours. Except for one digit of the S#, your Luger is exactly the same as #9232w, on page 331. I believe it is all original including the barrel.

Mpws · 01-04-2012, 05:26 AM

It gets interesting. Is there an estimate of how many that were put out in circulation ? Would this be a war gun or does that go under anything is possible ? The grips indicate to me honest wear.
Thank you again everyone.

MFC · 01-05-2012, 03:48 AM

Technically it is a commercial. There are no military or police acceptance stamps.

Mpws · 01-05-2012, 05:30 AM

So going back to what Ed has said--just to be clear, if a luger was used in an official capacity such as military or police it had to have a stamp that coincides with that.

Besides not having military/police markings and some straw colored components is there any difference mechanically or functionality that the commercial version has over the military equivalent ?

MFC · 01-06-2012, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mpws

So going back to what Ed has said--just to be clear, if a luger was used in an official capacity such as military or police it had to have a stamp that coincides with that.

Yes, they are supposed to. The thing about these is, commercials are supposed to have Eagle/N proofs (commercial Nitro firing proofs) also. With the Banner toggle, strawed parts and S# range, they were made as commercials. They could have been used by the military but, there is no way to prove it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mpws

Besides not having military/police markings and some straw colored components is there any difference mechanically or functionality that the commercial version has over the military equivalent ?

No.

Mpws · 01-06-2012, 05:22 AM

I am having a difficult time trying to imagine who would buy a a firearm (commercial) in that time era because of money-I know there is ignorance on my part. Can anyone give a rough estimate to how much this would have cost in US currency ?

What should I compare this to in order to get a current value ? I have been rummaging around and have not found comparable. It could be that I am looking in the wrong areas.

12-15-2011, 06:02 AM	#1
Mpws User Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: PA Posts: 11 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	German markings Was there any circumstances where a WW2 era luger would be used/circulated not having german markings on it -specifically a Mauser made variety ? From what I read in that time peroid required german proof markings. Any feedback would be appreciated. Last edited by Mpws; 01-02-2012 at 03:03 PM.

01-02-2012, 06:43 AM	#4
Mpws User Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: PA Posts: 11 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have some decent pictures to look at. Attached Images

01-02-2012, 06:46 AM	#5
Mpws User Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: PA Posts: 11 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A few more. The straw color is strong but the pictures do not show that. Attached Images

01-02-2012, 09:31 AM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,936 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	It is a finished commercial luger that went into military service (see the Mauser banner and exterior marking of the serial numbers). I would be amazed if there were not at least eagle N markings on it, at least originally it HAD to have them, or it would not have made it into military service. In addition to a single proof Eagle most likely on the barrel right, right receiver or left toggle???? Anything is possible, but very doubtful to me.... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-02-2012, 11:57 AM	#8
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Although commercial, would this gun have retained strawing at that late date? What about the "42" chamber date along with Mauser marked toggle? Last edited by alanint; 01-03-2012 at 08:48 AM.

12-15-2011, 07:58 AM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	By "not having any German marks on it" do you mean NO marks? Because ANY mark placed on a WW2 era Luger would be a German mark. If you mean nazi era acceptance stamps or other arsenal or factory stamps; there have been pistols that have turned up, which collectors call "lunch box specials" which were smuggled out of the factory in pieces and assembled later. These will bear either no or very few marks.

12-15-2011, 11:44 AM	#3
Mpws User Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: PA Posts: 11 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes no german arsenal stamps etc. I am working on the pictures and will post when I have good ones to look at.

01-02-2012, 11:01 AM	#7
Mpws User Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: PA Posts: 11 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I looked with a magnifying glass along the right side of the gun and left side toggle (except #35 on the pin)and see nothing and there is no indication of metal being removed. I have not diassembled it completely but I see no other markings then what I tried to show in the picutres. The barrel blue does not match the rest of the gun so would that explain missing marks if it the barrel was replaced ? I hope the pics were ok.

01-02-2012, 02:02 PM	#9
rivieraranch User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 101 Thanks: 4 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	It would be better to say "markings" because Marks are German currency.

01-02-2012, 03:02 PM	#10
Mpws User Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: PA Posts: 11 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes I will use markings in the future. I appreciate the feedback on my post.

01-03-2012, 03:11 AM	#11
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	On page 331 of Hallock and van de Kant's 'The Mauser Parabellum' there is another example and rack mate to your Luger. It is classified as a Mauser Commercial Banner, and is a "late war assembled commercial"... Serial #9232w, only three guns apart from yours. No proofs Military (42) dated receiver and military P.08 coded frame Square dot betwwen P and 08 on frame indicating 1942 manufacture Rounded edges of late front toggle link Strawed parts Bakelite grips There is another example with no proofs on page 333 which is very similar. S#9323w. Military (42) dated receiver, but has a rounded dot between the P and 08 on the frame, indicating 1941 manufacture. __________________ Mike C.

01-03-2012, 05:18 AM	#12
Mpws User Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: PA Posts: 11 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A definite square dot after the P

01-03-2012, 05:46 PM	#13
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Look at the front sight base. It may have an E/N or C/U Ken D

01-03-2012, 07:47 PM	#14
Mpws User Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: PA Posts: 11 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Without removing the front sight there is no letter pattern as described- but is this because it is not the original barrel ?

01-03-2012, 11:17 PM	#15
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Hi Michael, I forgot to mention, both examples I discribed above have barrels stamped with the bore gage only. No serial #'s, like yours. Except for one digit of the S#, your Luger is exactly the same as #9232w, on page 331. I believe it is all original including the barrel. __________________ Mike C.

01-04-2012, 05:26 AM	#16
Mpws User Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: PA Posts: 11 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It gets interesting. Is there an estimate of how many that were put out in circulation ? Would this be a war gun or does that go under anything is possible ? The grips indicate to me honest wear. Thank you again everyone. Last edited by Mpws; 01-04-2012 at 06:48 AM. Reason: add question

01-05-2012, 03:48 AM	#17
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Technically it is a commercial. There are no military or police acceptance stamps. __________________ Mike C.

01-05-2012, 05:30 AM	#18
Mpws User Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: PA Posts: 11 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So going back to what Ed has said--just to be clear, if a luger was used in an official capacity such as military or police it had to have a stamp that coincides with that. Besides not having military/police markings and some straw colored components is there any difference mechanically or functionality that the commercial version has over the military equivalent ?

01-06-2012, 05:22 AM	#20
Mpws User Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: PA Posts: 11 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I am having a difficult time trying to imagine who would buy a a firearm (commercial) in that time era because of money-I know there is ignorance on my part. Can anyone give a rough estimate to how much this would have cost in US currency ? What should I compare this to in order to get a current value ? I have been rummaging around and have not found comparable. It could be that I am looking in the wrong areas.