Need help to date an early Luger

majsu · 05-25-2012, 10:05 AM

Hi,

I'm new to this forum and I'm trying to find out some information for a Luger I recently came into possession of.

What strikes me most about this is the few markings on the pistol. The only markings on this pistol are as follows:

o The Toggle identification is DWM.
o The Serial Number is 66211 (matching) except magazine.
o Proof mark is a Crown and Letter N
o The number 11 on the bottom of the left side of the take down lever AND bottom of the trigger side plate AND on the rear Toggle link

This appears to be a model 1906. This gun has a 4 inch barrel, chambered in 7.65 and has a grip safety.

That's about all I can tell you about it unless you have any questions I can answer.

Can anyone help me to further identify it? Or tell me how to date it? I appreciate your help.

Lee

mrerick · 05-25-2012, 11:37 AM

Hi Lee and welcome to the forum. Where are you located?

You have a commercial contract Luger (proofed and marked for commercial sale rather than military contract sale) with serial numbers stamped in the commercial fashion made in the 1906 pattern with grip safety.

With the lighting and soft focus of your first pictures, it's hard to judge if it's refinished. Is the small toggle axle retention pin (visible on the right in your second picture) in the white or blued?

Are slightly lightened "halos" visible around the stamped serial number on the bottom of the barrel?

Could we see the letters that have been cut into the right grip? Is this meaningful to you (someone's initials? a company name?)?

My first impression is that this pistol may have been professionally restored.

The frame profile is that of a pistol made after 1908 (Ron Wood's type "V" from Still's "Central Powers Pistols" appendix "B"). Likely made before 1914 when contract sales were halted. Post WW-I sales started up again at s/n 73,500 (Kenyon) so it was probably made in the early 1910s.

alanint · 05-25-2012, 11:47 AM

Although I don't recall the exact thread, letters exactly like those pictured, which are burned into the grips have been discussed here before. They do have a significance but I cannot find the reference.

mrerick · 05-25-2012, 11:50 AM

I think that this was the thread:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...&highlight=FWB

According to Dwight, the unit came into existence in March, 1919 and was disbanded in April, 1920.

"EWB" a post WW-I Bavarian Militia.

Marc

majsu · 05-25-2012, 02:42 PM

First. Thank you both for your help. I am new to Lugers and this is a tremendous help.

I also apologize for my picture quality, all I have here is my EVO cell phone.

I am in Sarasota at the moment where the gun is.

To my knowledge this gun is in original condition and not restored, at least not since WWII when it was relieved from it's prior owner (as the story goes) on the battlefields of Europe. It was in one family since then and last fired in the early 1960's. This gun seems to be in almost pristine condition.

alanint, thanks for your notes on the EWB markings. We had only assumed they were a previous owners initials. I didn't think to look them up. I appreciate the heads up about them.

Mrerick, thank you for your assistance in identifying this piece. As to your questions.

The toggle retention pin seems to be in the white.

I don't see any "halos" about the serial number on the bottom side of the barrel. All cuts seem to be very crisp and sharp. There is very little where on this piece, almost liiks like it was never used. No holster wear is apparent either.

I am a little confused about something you posted. You said it was a commercial marking but the EWB indicates a military use. Were built for the commercial market and later used in the military?

Again thanks.

Lee

nukem556 · 05-25-2012, 05:40 PM

I don't think its been refinished... look at the fine machining marks on the middle toggle link and the area right above the right grip...if ANY sanding or buffing at all is done before a reblue, these are rubbed away......also if you look closely, the barrel serial haloes are obvious.

alanint · 05-25-2012, 06:28 PM

I agree. This is just one of those pristine examples that are out there and do turn up.

MFC · 05-25-2012, 08:38 PM

Hi Lee,
You stated that the barrel is 4" long. Are you measuring it from the muzzle to the breechblock? It is most likely 4 3/4".

majsu · 05-26-2012, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFC

Hi Lee,
You stated that the barrel is 4" long. Are you measuring it from the muzzle to the breechblock? It is most likely 4 3/4".

Mike,

I re-measured and the barrel length is 4 3/4 inches (to the breach block) and not 4 as previously stated. From what I read, all the 7.65caliber are 4 3/4. Thanks for the correction.

Lee

mrerick · 05-25-2012, 10:38 PM

I think that it is the exceptional condition and the flash / LED flash lighting that made me question the original finish. Glad to see consensus is that it's original.

It looks like the Bavarians setup a quasi-police unit after WW-I to act as a "home guard". There is a German language Wiki page about them that you can run through Google Translate at:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einwohnerwehr

http://translate.google.com/translat...FEinwohnerwehr

Marc

majsu · 05-26-2012, 09:58 AM

Wow. I really appreciate all this information. Alone I don't think I could have uncovered that much info. I understand there is also a 8 inch artillery model somewhere in the family. If it's in as pristine condition as this one it will be an exciting find.

majsu · 05-26-2012, 10:47 AM

This may not be the place to ask this but does anyone have an idea of what this pistol may be worth?

Douglas Jr. · 05-26-2012, 05:21 PM

Lee,

I've only seen this kind of marking on military issued guns. As the family also owns an Artillery Luger I would consider as a hypothesis that the grips of both pistos had been switched in the past. Remove carefully the grips and check if there is any numbers or marks on the inner side. To add support to this idea, there are records of Artillery Lugers with such mark.

On the other hand, I learned to never say never in the collecting field: as the EWB was a militia organization it would be possible to have an originally private purchase pistol carried by one of its members and marked accordindly.

At last, but not the least, I think the gun is in original and pristine condition.

Welcome to the forum!

Douglas

Stu · 05-26-2012, 06:30 PM

So that would just be the right grip panel ? I wouldn't have thought the left grip from an artillery would fit a grip safety gun without considerable work ?

Douglas Jr. · 05-27-2012, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu

So that would just be the right grip panel ? I wouldn't have thought the left grip from an artillery would fit a grip safety gun without considerable work ?

That's correct. It would be interesting to see the inner part of both grips.

Douglas

klaus 3338 · 05-29-2012, 03:02 AM

#60310 was made earlier than 1. June 1914.
Your nice Luger should be made in late 1914 or early 1915.

05-25-2012, 10:05 AM	#1
majsu User Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 5 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Need help to date an early Luger Hi, I'm new to this forum and I'm trying to find out some information for a Luger I recently came into possession of. What strikes me most about this is the few markings on the pistol. The only markings on this pistol are as follows: o The Toggle identification is DWM. o The Serial Number is 66211 (matching) except magazine. o Proof mark is a Crown and Letter N o The number 11 on the bottom of the left side of the take down lever AND bottom of the trigger side plate AND on the rear Toggle link This appears to be a model 1906. This gun has a 4 inch barrel, chambered in 7.65 and has a grip safety. That's about all I can tell you about it unless you have any questions I can answer. Can anyone help me to further identify it? Or tell me how to date it? I appreciate your help. Lee Attached Thumbnails

05-25-2012, 11:37 AM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Hi Lee and welcome to the forum. Where are you located? You have a commercial contract Luger (proofed and marked for commercial sale rather than military contract sale) with serial numbers stamped in the commercial fashion made in the 1906 pattern with grip safety. With the lighting and soft focus of your first pictures, it's hard to judge if it's refinished. Is the small toggle axle retention pin (visible on the right in your second picture) in the white or blued? Are slightly lightened "halos" visible around the stamped serial number on the bottom of the barrel? Could we see the letters that have been cut into the right grip? Is this meaningful to you (someone's initials? a company name?)? My first impression is that this pistol may have been professionally restored. The frame profile is that of a pistol made after 1908 (Ron Wood's type "V" from Still's "Central Powers Pistols" appendix "B"). Likely made before 1914 when contract sales were halted. Post WW-I sales started up again at s/n 73,500 (Kenyon) so it was probably made in the early 1910s. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-25-2012, 11:50 AM	#4
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	I think that this was the thread: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...&highlight=FWB According to Dwight, the unit came into existence in March, 1919 and was disbanded in April, 1920. "EWB" a post WW-I Bavarian Militia. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-25-2012, 08:38 PM	#8
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Hi Lee, You stated that the barrel is 4" long. Are you measuring it from the muzzle to the breechblock? It is most likely 4 3/4". __________________ Mike C.

05-25-2012, 10:38 PM	#10
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	I think that it is the exceptional condition and the flash / LED flash lighting that made me question the original finish. Glad to see consensus is that it's original. It looks like the Bavarians setup a quasi-police unit after WW-I to act as a "home guard". There is a German language Wiki page about them that you can run through Google Translate at: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einwohnerwehr http://translate.google.com/translat...FEinwohnerwehr Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-25-2012, 11:47 AM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Although I don't recall the exact thread, letters exactly like those pictured, which are burned into the grips have been discussed here before. They do have a significance but I cannot find the reference.

05-25-2012, 02:42 PM	#5
majsu User Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 5 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	First. Thank you both for your help. I am new to Lugers and this is a tremendous help. I also apologize for my picture quality, all I have here is my EVO cell phone. I am in Sarasota at the moment where the gun is. To my knowledge this gun is in original condition and not restored, at least not since WWII when it was relieved from it's prior owner (as the story goes) on the battlefields of Europe. It was in one family since then and last fired in the early 1960's. This gun seems to be in almost pristine condition. alanint, thanks for your notes on the EWB markings. We had only assumed they were a previous owners initials. I didn't think to look them up. I appreciate the heads up about them. Mrerick, thank you for your assistance in identifying this piece. As to your questions. The toggle retention pin seems to be in the white. I don't see any "halos" about the serial number on the bottom side of the barrel. All cuts seem to be very crisp and sharp. There is very little where on this piece, almost liiks like it was never used. No holster wear is apparent either. I am a little confused about something you posted. You said it was a commercial marking but the EWB indicates a military use. Were built for the commercial market and later used in the military? Again thanks. Lee

05-25-2012, 05:40 PM	#6
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	I don't think its been refinished... look at the fine machining marks on the middle toggle link and the area right above the right grip...if ANY sanding or buffing at all is done before a reblue, these are rubbed away......also if you look closely, the barrel serial haloes are obvious.

05-25-2012, 06:28 PM	#7
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I agree. This is just one of those pristine examples that are out there and do turn up.

05-26-2012, 09:58 AM	#11
majsu User Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 5 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wow. I really appreciate all this information. Alone I don't think I could have uncovered that much info. I understand there is also a 8 inch artillery model somewhere in the family. If it's in as pristine condition as this one it will be an exciting find.

05-26-2012, 10:47 AM	#12
majsu User Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 5 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This may not be the place to ask this but does anyone have an idea of what this pistol may be worth?

05-26-2012, 05:21 PM	#13
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	Lee, I've only seen this kind of marking on military issued guns. As the family also owns an Artillery Luger I would consider as a hypothesis that the grips of both pistos had been switched in the past. Remove carefully the grips and check if there is any numbers or marks on the inner side. To add support to this idea, there are records of Artillery Lugers with such mark. On the other hand, I learned to never say never in the collecting field: as the EWB was a militia organization it would be possible to have an originally private purchase pistol carried by one of its members and marked accordindly. At last, but not the least, I think the gun is in original and pristine condition. Welcome to the forum! Douglas

05-26-2012, 06:30 PM	#14
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	So that would just be the right grip panel ? I wouldn't have thought the left grip from an artillery would fit a grip safety gun without considerable work ?

05-29-2012, 03:02 AM	#16
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 517 Thanks: 0 Thanked 411 Times in 160 Posts	#60310 was made earlier than 1. June 1914. Your nice Luger should be made in late 1914 or early 1915.