1918 Mauser Luger info

Szyp · 08-27-2012, 07:51 PM

Hello. I have just fulfilled a lifelong dream and purchased my first Luger, at my age of 66. I have spent my professional career as a history teacher and professor, and am extremely interested in the 2 World Wars partly because my family immigrated to America in between the wars. Part of the fun is imagining where this particular Luger may have been, who might have used it, and such. Anyone who can offer any insight, links, or info is much appreciated. The serial number is 5343f, and it is a Mauser, year 1920, with the last 2 serial numbers stamped on the small parts, The 7 round magazine has an aluminum base, and is not matching. I think the serial numbers on the small parts indicate it would have been military issue; if so this would have been issued during the immediate post World War1 period, during the Weimar Period, when Germany was limited to a 100,000 man Army. It is in exceptional condition for it's age, so I am hoping maybe someo

ne of some historical significance might be connected with this pistol. Any help or suggestions, or personal insight will be much appreciated as I begin this fascinating hobby. I can be reached at [email protected].

Edward Tinker · 08-27-2012, 08:29 PM

Welcome to the forum, rather than private emails, you can get all your answers here.

Is it have a blank toggle or is it a stylized DWM? As Mauser did not make lugers until 1934...

Pictures would help us, help you very much.

You wrote, 1918 but then 1920, are both numbers on the receiver?

Ed

DavidJayUden · 08-27-2012, 08:29 PM

S:
Welcome!
I think that we need to see photos to be of much help on this one. Is that possible?
dju

lugerholsterrepair · 08-27-2012, 09:01 PM

Ed and David are quite correct..Photo's and clear concise correct descriptions are key to understanding what you have.

What makes you believe/say it's a Mauser?

Szyp · 08-27-2012, 11:37 PM

Sorry about that- on the top of the pistol is "engraved 1920 and a stylized oval Mauser. I know the gun has been rebuilt- is it possible it is a cobbled together gun? I do not have the gun in my possession yet- waiting for the NJ permit, so my FFL is holding it for a couple of days. Then I will post a photo. When I say engraved I mean stamped cleanly into the metal. The toggle is blank. Thank you for your kindnesses. Some day Maybe I can contribute and not just take. Before I can be sure I answered you correctly, what part is the toggle? Once I know that, I can check it for sure. The reason for the year confusion is that I was looking at 2 shooter grades-one a 1918, unrebuilt, and since I wanted a shooter,the 1020 seemed a better buy because it had been rebuilt. I bought it from a dentist who collects Lugers and is making room to expand his new interest in broomhandle Mausers. Thank you again.

Edward Tinker · 08-27-2012, 11:56 PM

Well, hopefully you paid a shooter price for it, $500-$800??

As a 1920 could be a date, or could be a gov't stamping (see FAQ)

A Mauser in a stylized oval is a 'banner mauser' and uncommon, but you would not see a 1920 on one.

Markings on the right or left would help in knowing the approx year of the receiver (which has the 1920 on it)

The toggle we are talking about has the mauser on it

Ed

Szyp · 08-28-2012, 07:51 AM

Yes, I paid a shooter price. Is it possible that the pistol, manufactured in 1920, could have been refurbished by Mauser, which is as you describe the stamping, at a later date when Hitler went to full out rearmament? The serial number, which appears on all small parts- the last 2 digits- are consistent throughput and if it was the 5343rd issue of the f or sixth run, that seems like a lot of Lugers for one year- 1920- of a 100,000 man army. The mystery deepens....as soon as I can I will post photos and make this easier.

I bought it as a shooter because I want to shoot one, and because I do not want to spend a lot of money in a hobby that could really burn me as a newby.

Edward Tinker · 08-28-2012, 09:37 AM

no, highly unlikely

I did NOT say it was made in 1920, I said, it COULD be, with that suffix, it was not made in 1920

however, we are all just guessing until we get pictures

does the toggle have the same number?

wlyon · 08-28-2012, 10:44 AM

Welcome to the Forum. Looking forward to your pictures. Bill

Szyp · 08-28-2012, 10:57 AM

All the numbers that I could see, which were 43, were on every individual part that I could see without breaking the gun down. The 1920 was stamped crosswise on the top, identical in placement to the 1918 that was available also.

Szyp · 08-28-2012, 11:40 AM

Can anyone recommend a good brand/load/type of bullet (cartridge- I do not handload) I should use when I first fire the Luger? I have examined the bore and it is clean and shiny, with excellent lands and groves,and the armorer for a local major police department,who also happens to be a personal friend and my FFL as well as the man who found this Luger for me, has examined it and says it is an excellent shooter. Yoy take your advice where you can get it, from those you respect. That is why I have learned to ask here. I am a belt and suspenders type of guy- measure twice, cut once.

mrerick · 08-28-2012, 11:44 AM

Hi Wesley, and welcome to the forum...

Use a standard velocity 115gn grain bullet full metal jacket round. Something like the white box ammo sold by Winchester. Check out your local WalMart for good prices.

Don't use "NATO" power (high power) rounds, or +P ammo. Lugers were not designed for that. A lot of surplus 9mm ammo is machine gun ammo, which is also too high in power.

Marc

Szyp · 08-28-2012, 12:05 PM

Thanks- I am just getting back to shooting after a six year hiatus for personal reasons, and am "rearming" and stocking up on ammo when it is on sale- and I have just what you suggest. By the way, an excellent source for discount shooting needs, and forgive me if you already know, is www.palmettostatearmory.com- as well as the old standby www.budsgunshop.com.

rhuff · 08-28-2012, 05:27 PM

Hi Wesley, and welcome to the Luger forum. Congrats on you purchase of your first Luger pistol. I can feel you excitement over your purchase.

May I make a suggestion? Since you know nothing about this pistol, I would recommend that you break it down(disassemble) , and give it a good cleaning and a good lubing. These Lugers like to be kept clean and lubed....Enjoy!!

lugerholsterrepair · 08-28-2012, 05:47 PM

Richard gives good advice..Any new to you luger should be recommend that you break it down(disassemble) , and give it a good cleaning and a good lubing. These Lugers like to be kept clean and lubed.

I just got a fine collector pistol where dried old oil had gummed up the works including the plunger & spring on the sear. It was locked solid. This would prevent the pistol from functioning properly of course. After removing the plunger pin, plunger and spring I scraped off all the gunk, polished it all up inside and out..re oiled it with a light sewing machine oil and the pistol fired a few rounds to satisfy my curiosity. Cycled and ejected properly so I am a happy man. I will likely never shoot it again but I know it WILL shoot!

Szyp · 08-28-2012, 06:31 PM

Thank you for the tip. I always do that with a new firearm not just to practice good maintenance, but alsoto familiarize myselfwith the firearm. Safety first.

Szyp · 10-10-2012, 03:03 PM

Hello. I finally got my 1920 Commercial Luger, all numbers match, and since it had already been refinished, I sent it off to Thor for a re-refinish back to it's original condition. He has very helpful in sharing the history of this particular gun, but I have one question that I know I saw the answer to somewhere in my ruminations on the web, but can not find again, so I am seeking assistance. The magazine, which is matching number, has a numeral 7, shaped exactly as is typed in this note, approx 3/4 inch high engraved on the left side of the mag. I say engraved because the edges are way too sharp and clean to have been stamped. Does anyone know the meaning of this numeral? The mag is black, aluminum base, and just has that "7" that I can not figure out. Maybe it's nothing, but I am trying to learn all I can about these magnificent pistols. Any and all suggestions/ideas are welcome. Thanks for reading this.

mrerick · 10-10-2012, 03:44 PM

None of the Luger manufacturing lines or military users of the pistol that I know of would have marked a magazine with a 3/4 inch high digit "7".

Also, to make it clear, Mauser was not making Lugers or parts for Lugers with their commercial banner trademark until the mid to late 1930s. The DWM assembly line was moved to Oberndorf in the 1933-1934 timeframe.

Up to the end of WW-I, Lugers were made by DWM and the Imperial arsenal at Erfurt.

The Erfurt tooling was moved to Suhl where Simson & Co. refurbished WW-I Lugers and (after 1925) built 12,000 new ones.

Their tooling was confiscated by the Nazi government and moved to Krieghoff's operation in about 1933.

So, the parts you're describing on your Luger could not have come from the same factory. In 1920 (whether a date or the more likely Weimar property mark) the pistol would have been manufactured by DWM or the Erfurt arsenal.

It would be interesting to know if your pistol has the police modifications like the sear safety or magazine safety. As many have mentioned, pictures are going to help.

As your personal interests span both World Wars, your Luger probably does also. It's most likely a parts pistol, but would be interesting to learn if Mauser refurbished it or it was done after WW-II. The Germans didn't waste things.

Marc

Szyp · 10-10-2012, 04:20 PM

Thank you. I am aware that the Mauser banner toggle train was married some time after 1935 or so, the mag safety is provided for but was removed, ( the hole is there) and the sear safety is present. When I get the luger back I will figure out how to post pictures to make it easier for you kind people to help me. The serial number is 5343a, it has the WaA4 acceptance stamps (alphabet luger) and the 43 on all the requisite small parts- I will have to wait to see if the 3 is flat or round topped and if there is a foot on the 4. I am also aware that it is a Weimar police pistol made in the summer of 1920 and ws issued to the Prussian State Police, but any unit markings are absent- I thought perhaps the "7" was some sort of identifier for whom or whatever would need to know. This is fascinating stuff for a retired history teacher whoe main field of interest is Germany 1919-1946 (me!). Most of this info is courtesy of Thor, who has proven to be a kind, helpful gentleman who is never too busy to help me. My hopeful guess is that the pistol was issued to a member of the Prussian State Police in 1920, he served his time and retired, and perhaps then the gun was turn in and sent to Mauser for refitting. By then the Prussian Police had been reformed into the State Security (Sicherheitsdeinst) and one section of which was the Secret State Police (GEheime STadts POlizei (GESTAPO). The SD was broken into "bureaus," and buried way down in section 4B4 was the transportation division (I do not recall the correct name) headed by a lowly Colonel named Adolph Eichmann. It is interesting that such a task as identifying and deporting the Jews was assigned to an ambitious colonel, a rank in wartime that would have been rather insignificant. I better stop here before I get into a full blown recitation. Again, thank you, and as always, any corrections, information or advice is appreciated and welcome as I search out the truth.

Edward Tinker · 10-10-2012, 04:45 PM

boy, am I confused

when did you say it had been refinished?

Who said it was made in the 'summer' of 1920 -the serial number of an 'a' 'could' be 1919, 1920, 1921

Who said it was issued to the Prussians? if it has no unit markings on it?

no pictures, lots of assumptions on both parts of the postings, I am not sure that we are answering anything here?

08-27-2012, 07:51 PM	#1
Szyp User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1918 Mauser Luger info Hello. I have just fulfilled a lifelong dream and purchased my first Luger, at my age of 66. I have spent my professional career as a history teacher and professor, and am extremely interested in the 2 World Wars partly because my family immigrated to America in between the wars. Part of the fun is imagining where this particular Luger may have been, who might have used it, and such. Anyone who can offer any insight, links, or info is much appreciated. The serial number is 5343f, and it is a Mauser, year 1920, with the last 2 serial numbers stamped on the small parts, The 7 round magazine has an aluminum base, and is not matching. I think the serial numbers on the small parts indicate it would have been military issue; if so this would have been issued during the immediate post World War1 period, during the Weimar Period, when Germany was limited to a 100,000 man Army. It is in exceptional condition for it's age, so I am hoping maybe someone of some historical significance might be connected with this pistol. Any help or suggestions, or personal insight will be much appreciated as I begin this fascinating hobby. I can be reached at [email protected]. Last edited by Szyp; 08-27-2012 at 07:53 PM. Reason: misspelling, missing info

08-27-2012, 08:29 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Welcome to the forum, rather than private emails, you can get all your answers here. Is it have a blank toggle or is it a stylized DWM? As Mauser did not make lugers until 1934... Pictures would help us, help you very much. You wrote, 1918 but then 1920, are both numbers on the receiver? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-27-2012, 09:01 PM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Ed and David are quite correct..Photo's and clear concise correct descriptions are key to understanding what you have. What makes you believe/say it's a Mauser? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-27-2012, 11:56 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Well, hopefully you paid a shooter price for it, $500-$800?? As a 1920 could be a date, or could be a gov't stamping (see FAQ) A Mauser in a stylized oval is a 'banner mauser' and uncommon, but you would not see a 1920 on one. Markings on the right or left would help in knowing the approx year of the receiver (which has the 1920 on it) The toggle we are talking about has the mauser on it Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-28-2012, 10:44 AM	#9
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,636 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,559 Times in 955 Posts	Welcome to the Forum. Looking forward to your pictures. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

08-27-2012, 08:29 PM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	S: Welcome! I think that we need to see photos to be of much help on this one. Is that possible? dju

08-27-2012, 11:37 PM	#5
Szyp User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry about that- on the top of the pistol is "engraved 1920 and a stylized oval Mauser. I know the gun has been rebuilt- is it possible it is a cobbled together gun? I do not have the gun in my possession yet- waiting for the NJ permit, so my FFL is holding it for a couple of days. Then I will post a photo. When I say engraved I mean stamped cleanly into the metal. The toggle is blank. Thank you for your kindnesses. Some day Maybe I can contribute and not just take. Before I can be sure I answered you correctly, what part is the toggle? Once I know that, I can check it for sure. The reason for the year confusion is that I was looking at 2 shooter grades-one a 1918, unrebuilt, and since I wanted a shooter,the 1020 seemed a better buy because it had been rebuilt. I bought it from a dentist who collects Lugers and is making room to expand his new interest in broomhandle Mausers. Thank you again.

08-28-2012, 07:51 AM	#7
Szyp User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, I paid a shooter price. Is it possible that the pistol, manufactured in 1920, could have been refurbished by Mauser, which is as you describe the stamping, at a later date when Hitler went to full out rearmament? The serial number, which appears on all small parts- the last 2 digits- are consistent throughput and if it was the 5343rd issue of the f or sixth run, that seems like a lot of Lugers for one year- 1920- of a 100,000 man army. The mystery deepens....as soon as I can I will post photos and make this easier. I bought it as a shooter because I want to shoot one, and because I do not want to spend a lot of money in a hobby that could really burn me as a newby.

08-28-2012, 09:37 AM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	no, highly unlikely I did NOT say it was made in 1920, I said, it COULD be, with that suffix, it was not made in 1920 however, we are all just guessing until we get pictures does the toggle have the same number?

08-28-2012, 10:57 AM	#10
Szyp User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	All the numbers that I could see, which were 43, were on every individual part that I could see without breaking the gun down. The 1920 was stamped crosswise on the top, identical in placement to the 1918 that was available also.

08-28-2012, 11:40 AM	#11
Szyp User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Can anyone recommend a good brand/load/type of bullet (cartridge- I do not handload) I should use when I first fire the Luger? I have examined the bore and it is clean and shiny, with excellent lands and groves,and the armorer for a local major police department,who also happens to be a personal friend and my FFL as well as the man who found this Luger for me, has examined it and says it is an excellent shooter. Yoy take your advice where you can get it, from those you respect. That is why I have learned to ask here. I am a belt and suspenders type of guy- measure twice, cut once.

08-28-2012, 11:44 AM	#12
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Hi Wesley, and welcome to the forum... Use a standard velocity 115gn grain bullet full metal jacket round. Something like the white box ammo sold by Winchester. Check out your local WalMart for good prices. Don't use "NATO" power (high power) rounds, or +P ammo. Lugers were not designed for that. A lot of surplus 9mm ammo is machine gun ammo, which is also too high in power. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-28-2012, 12:05 PM	#13
Szyp User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks- I am just getting back to shooting after a six year hiatus for personal reasons, and am "rearming" and stocking up on ammo when it is on sale- and I have just what you suggest. By the way, an excellent source for discount shooting needs, and forgive me if you already know, is www.palmettostatearmory.com- as well as the old standby www.budsgunshop.com.

08-28-2012, 05:27 PM	#14
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,291 Thanks: 2,709 Thanked 972 Times in 717 Posts	Hi Wesley, and welcome to the Luger forum. Congrats on you purchase of your first Luger pistol. I can feel you excitement over your purchase. May I make a suggestion? Since you know nothing about this pistol, I would recommend that you break it down(disassemble) , and give it a good cleaning and a good lubing. These Lugers like to be kept clean and lubed....Enjoy!!

08-28-2012, 05:47 PM	#15
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Richard gives good advice..Any new to you luger should be recommend that you break it down(disassemble) , and give it a good cleaning and a good lubing. These Lugers like to be kept clean and lubed. I just got a fine collector pistol where dried old oil had gummed up the works including the plunger & spring on the sear. It was locked solid. This would prevent the pistol from functioning properly of course. After removing the plunger pin, plunger and spring I scraped off all the gunk, polished it all up inside and out..re oiled it with a light sewing machine oil and the pistol fired a few rounds to satisfy my curiosity. Cycled and ejected properly so I am a happy man. I will likely never shoot it again but I know it WILL shoot! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-28-2012, 06:31 PM	#16
Szyp User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you for the tip. I always do that with a new firearm not just to practice good maintenance, but alsoto familiarize myselfwith the firearm. Safety first.

10-10-2012, 03:03 PM	#17
Szyp User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello. I finally got my 1920 Commercial Luger, all numbers match, and since it had already been refinished, I sent it off to Thor for a re-refinish back to it's original condition. He has very helpful in sharing the history of this particular gun, but I have one question that I know I saw the answer to somewhere in my ruminations on the web, but can not find again, so I am seeking assistance. The magazine, which is matching number, has a numeral 7, shaped exactly as is typed in this note, approx 3/4 inch high engraved on the left side of the mag. I say engraved because the edges are way too sharp and clean to have been stamped. Does anyone know the meaning of this numeral? The mag is black, aluminum base, and just has that "7" that I can not figure out. Maybe it's nothing, but I am trying to learn all I can about these magnificent pistols. Any and all suggestions/ideas are welcome. Thanks for reading this.

10-10-2012, 03:44 PM	#18
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	None of the Luger manufacturing lines or military users of the pistol that I know of would have marked a magazine with a 3/4 inch high digit "7". Also, to make it clear, Mauser was not making Lugers or parts for Lugers with their commercial banner trademark until the mid to late 1930s. The DWM assembly line was moved to Oberndorf in the 1933-1934 timeframe. Up to the end of WW-I, Lugers were made by DWM and the Imperial arsenal at Erfurt. The Erfurt tooling was moved to Suhl where Simson & Co. refurbished WW-I Lugers and (after 1925) built 12,000 new ones. Their tooling was confiscated by the Nazi government and moved to Krieghoff's operation in about 1933. So, the parts you're describing on your Luger could not have come from the same factory. In 1920 (whether a date or the more likely Weimar property mark) the pistol would have been manufactured by DWM or the Erfurt arsenal. It would be interesting to know if your pistol has the police modifications like the sear safety or magazine safety. As many have mentioned, pictures are going to help. As your personal interests span both World Wars, your Luger probably does also. It's most likely a parts pistol, but would be interesting to learn if Mauser refurbished it or it was done after WW-II. The Germans didn't waste things. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-10-2012, 04:20 PM	#19
Szyp User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you. I am aware that the Mauser banner toggle train was married some time after 1935 or so, the mag safety is provided for but was removed, ( the hole is there) and the sear safety is present. When I get the luger back I will figure out how to post pictures to make it easier for you kind people to help me. The serial number is 5343a, it has the WaA4 acceptance stamps (alphabet luger) and the 43 on all the requisite small parts- I will have to wait to see if the 3 is flat or round topped and if there is a foot on the 4. I am also aware that it is a Weimar police pistol made in the summer of 1920 and ws issued to the Prussian State Police, but any unit markings are absent- I thought perhaps the "7" was some sort of identifier for whom or whatever would need to know. This is fascinating stuff for a retired history teacher whoe main field of interest is Germany 1919-1946 (me!). Most of this info is courtesy of Thor, who has proven to be a kind, helpful gentleman who is never too busy to help me. My hopeful guess is that the pistol was issued to a member of the Prussian State Police in 1920, he served his time and retired, and perhaps then the gun was turn in and sent to Mauser for refitting. By then the Prussian Police had been reformed into the State Security (Sicherheitsdeinst) and one section of which was the Secret State Police (GEheime STadts POlizei (GESTAPO). The SD was broken into "bureaus," and buried way down in section 4B4 was the transportation division (I do not recall the correct name) headed by a lowly Colonel named Adolph Eichmann. It is interesting that such a task as identifying and deporting the Jews was assigned to an ambitious colonel, a rank in wartime that would have been rather insignificant. I better stop here before I get into a full blown recitation. Again, thank you, and as always, any corrections, information or advice is appreciated and welcome as I search out the truth.

10-10-2012, 04:45 PM	#20
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	boy, am I confused when did you say it had been refinished? Who said it was made in the 'summer' of 1920 -the serial number of an 'a' 'could' be 1919, 1920, 1921 Who said it was issued to the Prussians? if it has no unit markings on it? no pictures, lots of assumptions on both parts of the postings, I am not sure that we are answering anything here?