interesting mini-luger .32 cal??

[skeeter4206]

I was at a local gunshow today and saw an interesting luger that was about 1/3 the size of a normal luger. It wasnt the baby luger as I have seen pictures of before. This whole gun was about 4"-5" total in length and had .32 cal on the side. It said Erfurt on the sale tag and had made in germany on the side of the luger. Everthing about the gun look like a miniature version of your regular P08. I wanted to take a picture of it to post here, but being at a gunshow they kinda frown upon that. I was curious if anyone has ever seen one like this and can tell me something about it. The gunshow is here until sunday, so maybe I'll try and go back up there and look at it more thoroughly.

Although even if it was a gun which I wanted to purchase, they picked the wrong weekend to have a gunshow. Unless you have a carrying permit or your C&R or FFL liscence I couldnt get a gun until monday. I tried to buy a mauser and when they tried to call the feds to varify I was good to purchase, they got a message saying they were closed until monday. Thats a hell of note for people without the paperwork and wanted to buy a gun this weekend. They tables selling the guns didnt exactly seem thrilled about that. I'd imagine that really hurt business for the dealers.

But any feedback on that .32 mini luger is what Im curious about as I havent seen or heard anyone even talk about that one.

[Edward Tinker]

Sounds like an Erma and wasn't Erma essentially Erfurt at one time or in the town of Erfurt?

[Vlim]

The Erma company and the Erfurt arsenal had nothing to do with each other.

Erma Stands for Erfurter Maschinenfabrik B. Geipel and it was a privately held company, lasted till about the mid 1990s when they finally went bankrupt after years of financial troubles.

[skeeter4206]

I was reading in some older threads in this forum that talked about the same kinda gun. They were calling an Erma .32 cal. So apparently sometime along the way it was manufactured. As for for reviews on that gun, they were kinda mixed opinions on it. Some liked it and some didnt. Those that didnt said they were having feeding issues.

The one down at the gun show was in a glass cased box, so I didnt even bother getting them to take it out and hold it, but it looked like it hadnt seen much use. But then again I aint got a clue when they were made. But it looked cool, being so small. It would knida be interesting to have around and play with. Im curious what would be a good price for that gun. a .32 cal gun I cant imagine would cost to much. I didnt even pay attention to the price. They had a stoeger .22 luger right next to it so guy was buying as I walked up. It was in the original box and other parts in the box with it.

Im going to try and make back buy there today or tommorow and try and get a better look at.

[rhuff]

The little Erma .32cal shows up from time to time on Gun Broker. They are a bit pricer than the Erma .22cal pistols. I have never owned the .32 gun, but have owned, and still own, two of the Erma long barrel "carbine type" .22 pistols. My two Ermas work very well, but there are many that have not had the same experience. Perhaps because mine were NIB purchases, and BUBBA hadn't had a chance to "fix" them.

[skeeter4206]

I went back today to the gunshow and walked around looking. Low and behold there were two different .32 cal Erma's being sold by two different people. One person wanted $300 and the other for $275. I actually got to handle one of them, which was the nicer one. They are pretty cool little lugers. I actually got dude to let me take a couple of pics of it with my phone. So anyone thats never seen one either, heres a couple of pics.

[Dwight Gruber]

ERMA designed the .22 calaiber conversion kits for the P08, used for practice in the Wehrmacht and later sold commercally.

Modrn ERMA-based pistols, found in .22 and .32 caliber with several different manufacturer/importer names, do not operate in the same way as a Luger pistol. They are a straight blowback design with fairly simple, conventional triggering and functioning. The only similarities to the locked-breech Luger are the toggle-connected breechblock and the overall physical shape.

--Dwight

[skeeter4206]

I noticed it didnt have a side plate cover. Some of the parts just dint look to be fit with any quality at all. I still would rather have the real thing by all means. It just seems to me that guns made back at the early part of the 1900s seem to be just put together with a little bit of pride. I guess not having a T.V. or other things to divert ones full attention to their craft.

[tomaustin]

http://www.ai4fr.com/main/page_milit...uger_erma.html

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by tomaustin

http://www.ai4fr.com/main/page_milit...uger_erma.html

Tom's on the right track here...

The article describes the KGP69, which is cal.22., and slightly larger than the one you're talking about.
The one you provided pics of is the KGP68A (suffix A added to denote magazine safety added to comply with US import laws in 1968), made from about 1969 until, I think, the late 80's. Beeman imported the KGP69s towards the end, but it's the same gun with different, wood grips)
The KGP series Ermas are made mostly from steel, sporting a cast Zamak (fancy name for pot metal/cast zinc alloyed with aluminum, magnesium, etc.) frame. The Erma .22s most refer to because they are far more common, however, are the La, Ep, and Et .22s, which had a barrel liner and breechblock as the only major components rendered in steel. The bulk of the parts--frame, barrel extension, toggle train (exc. breechblock) are cast Zamak.
The KGPs function better than the cranky cast-parts models, despite attempted improvements made in the latter. The blowback system does not lock the bolt in battery as does a true toggle system found on the Parabellum--the axes of the toggle axles do not line up in the same way, and the barrel extension does not move during cycling, as this is not needed to unlock the toggle via frame ramps.
I have a .22,.32, and two .380s. The KGP.22 model is smaller than a P.08, and the KGP68s are smaller still, despite their larger caliber.
These are becoming pricey, yes, but some are asking ridiculous prices for them. Here is my list of what I think they should sell for:
La.22 poor $125-175 OK $175-275 great, maybe with stuff $250-325
Ep, Et.22 poor $125-175 OK $200-300 great, etc $275-350 Maybe tack on a few bucks for the charm of the long barrel...
KGP69 (.22) poor $200-250 OK $250-$325 great $350-$425
KGP68 (a) in .32 auto poor $175-225 OK $225-300 great $325-450
These sold originally for less than $200 (less than $100 for the Zamak models), so, some definite appreciation over time, as with all firearms. None, I think, are as numerous as original Lugers, so will remain relatively rare and prices will rise with market interest. There's one for over $600 for the .32 in great shape, with box and papers, etc. It's in almost new condition, but I feel this price is way out of line. These models are emerging from closets and safes, many in near mint condition, and present an opportunity, if bought right, to see a bit of investment growth. One thing for sure, nobody's going to make any more of them. Replacement parts are still sort of available (spring sets, aftermarket mags), but the commonly broken ones are scarce, like front sights for the Zamak models, and many other small parts. One could wait a long time for a specific part, depending on what it might be, if waiting for someone to part out a gun on G.B.
I bought mine as shooters, and they are fun. The KGPs are very cute, look closest to the real deal, and will be the most durable/dependable due to the extent of steel construction.

[el_loco]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

....
The one you provided pics of is the KGP68A (suffix A added to denote magazine safety added to comply with US import laws in 1968)...

You have any information about that law?
Reasons, why they wanted a magazine safety?

Best regards
Klaus

[ithacaartist]

Klaus,

Sorry,although I probably should, I don't know much more about the regulations that went into effect in 1968. If someone doesn't chime in with a link to the law(s), I'll do some research and post later.

The magazine safety prevents the action from being fully opened unless there is a mag in place. Nor will it fire a round with an empty mag well. It's kind of a P.I.T.A. when working on the gun. It makes de-c0cking the pistol next to impossible without a convoluted, three-handed routine. I think it would behave as a pistol without a mag safety if the bar that travels the length of the grip frame, pushed up by the knobs of the mag, is simply removed.

I'll bet "cirelaw" would be able to give us a rundown on the 1968 stuff, if he sees this post!

D.P.

[el_loco]

Hi Ithacaartist,

thank you for your answer.

i own both, KGP68 and KGP68A. I already found out, that the A-Version was for the US-market. I didnt understand the reason, why they had this.

Magazine-safeties are nonsens, if you loose the magazine, its impossible to use the last bullet, the one in the chamber.
you just can throw your gun.
This was also a (if not the only) reason, why Walther-Safety was removed from the Police-Luger.

I found that thread and your posting, so i hoped, you know the reason. But it isnt so importent for me to keep you busy with a reasearch. thank you for your offer anyways!!

Best regards
Klaus

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by el_loco

Magazine-safeties are nonsens, if you loose the magazine, its impossible to use the last bullet, the one in the chamber.
you just can throw your gun....
Klaus

The last shot can be fired by pushing the mag safety bar up into the handle, as the mag itself would. Cursory examination of this system leads me to believe that the entire mag safety bar could be removed, eliminating the problem entirely. My problem with it is that the safety prevents the action from being opened/worked for diagnostic reasons. It takes three hands to dry-cycle these pistols!

The 1968 regulations seem anemic in comparison to what is currently happening: Knee-jerk, irrational, dogmatic, emotional, panic-inspired legislation. Of the more than a hundred million legal gun owners in the U.S., a literal handful have caused problems of a scope we're hearing about today. This aspect, whereby the millions in the barrel suffer because of the actions of a tiny minority of bad apples, really galls me. I think I'm not alone in feeling personally insulted by what's going on; these are such times when we see just how ignorant and unjustifiably biased our lawmakers can be.

[singleshotman]

i see that you suffer from living in NY State.Why not move out West where you can still be free? My relations came from upstate NY and moved to NM about 1900-i'm glad they did.
We have lived all over the west, but at present i'm in Texas.

[ithacaartist]

When this mess all began, it seemed to me that the rest of the states would wind up with regulations that were as tough as the toughest. Little did I anticipate that one of the toughest would become even tougher at not much more than the blink of an eye. What follows, I'm sure, will be an interesting, though probably painful, trip. We better fasten out seat belts while this situation reaches whatever plateau it's destined for...

I lived in Austin, Tx. for a year, back in the day. Somehow, I wound up back in NY--something I sometimes regret. This is like one of those times.