A decent haul - 1916 Erfurt

Blockhead · 03-12-2013, 08:17 PM

Picked up this set recently at a great price and would like to have you guys chime in on what I got. This will likely become my shooter luger. The pistol #5670 does not have matching numbers, but it looks like two it has two sets of numbers: "70" is found on the locking bolt, forward toggle link, extractor, and "48" is found on the trigger, connector pin,hold open latch, safety bar, and sear bar and "748" on the frame. Even to my inexperienced eye I can see it has been refinished.

One part I'm not familiar with is the side plate. It has some numbers stamped on the inside of the plate that looks like "08" and "CN" with what looks like a cross on the trigger lever.

The grips are unmarked black plastic - any way to tell if they are original luger grips (I know they're not original to this pistol). Also, I think I can see a faint waffenamt on the take down tool just below the circle cut-out, but I couldn't get a good pic of it. Does it look legit?

Norme · 03-12-2013, 08:25 PM

Hi Josh, The lower half of your gun comes from a 1941 or 42 Mauser. The frame has the "Mauser hump" and is marked P08 on it's left side. The receiver and toggle train are from a 1916 Erfurt. That side plate may be Swiss.
Regards, Norm

mrerick · 03-12-2013, 08:32 PM

I guess question one is "have you shot it yet".

Two is "does it function properly"?

The "+" on your side plate's trigger lever has the appearance of Swiss proof marks. The metal grain on the plate itself looks cast to me.

The "P.08" on your holster is not in the correct font. Stitching looks reproduction to me, but others are more expert.

Look at the back of the grips to determine if they are original or repro.

An Erfurt would not be salt blued and would have strawed small parts.

So... if it shoots well that should be a great pistol for you!

Marc

alanint · 03-12-2013, 09:01 PM

Post photos of the inside of the grips. If they are real, you can sell them and add $250-$300 to you haul and get a nice set of wooden repros for under $100. You could also sell the magazines for $150 or so each and buy cheap Mec-Gars for shooting. You might recoup your entire purchase price by parting it out.

Blockhead · 03-12-2013, 10:52 PM

As always, thanks for the info guys. I'll get some pics of the inside of the grips taken, but in the meantime, what am I looking for? Were they marked in some way?

And no, I haven't fired it yet, but a basic function check seems to indicate that it will go boom (in the right way, of course).

As far as the mags, I would love to trade one for a similar condition late luger fxo magazine without a serial number. Would that be a fair trade?

I'll get some more pics of the holster too. I'm certainly no expert, but i'd be surprised that the holster might be a fake. I showed it to a buddy who collects German militaria and he had no issues with it.

Nomadr · 03-13-2013, 12:23 AM

Is that magazine number 4884 or 4684? is it FXO marked?

I have byf 41 4885q

Bob

Frank B · 03-13-2013, 06:51 AM

I am not an expert, but I do think the holster is orginal. On the backside, on the right loop, appears to be a field repair with metal wire? I have a old orginal Heer belt that also had field repair with metal wire...The P08 looks as though it was done after leather was darkened...the proof marks look good to me. Possible the P08 was added by West germany, or DDR...Austria?

Frank B · 03-13-2013, 06:56 AM

Also, in reproduction holsters, the loops on the back are not at a sloop/angle...and on originals they are slanted.

Frank B · 03-13-2013, 06:59 AM

Here is my wire repair...

Balder · 03-13-2013, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

....... The receiver and toggle train are from a 1916 Erfurt.
Regards, Norm

Shouldn't an Erfurt 1916 have a receiver cut-out for a tangent sight? This one does not.

Balder

DavidJayUden · 03-13-2013, 08:39 AM

Looks like a great shooter that comes with some good stuff.
Jerry will weigh in on the holster and settle that once and for all. I'm betting that it is correct.
Good point ont he non-cut receiver. Can we get some close ups on the numbers/markings on the left side?
DWM receiver, Erfurt toggle, Mauser lower?
dju

Blockhead · 03-13-2013, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nomadr

Is that magazine number 4884 or 4684? is it FXO marked?

I have byf 41 4885q

Bob

Bob, that mag is marked 4684 and it is FXO marked.

Blockhead · 03-13-2013, 11:25 PM

More pics of the grips. Sorry for the poor lighting, but I didn't get around to taking these until after all the natural light was gone.

Blockhead · 03-16-2013, 11:59 AM

Better pics of grips with natural light. Any thoughts?

Blockhead · 03-18-2013, 02:49 PM

Anyone want to take a stab at what the grips above are?

ithacaartist · 03-18-2013, 07:51 PM

Josh, one of the clues as to whether the grips are repro or original is found by examining the holes on the grips' backsides to see if they are tapped. If they are not, then I believe this would mean they are repro, for certain. Someone will tell us when, but in the 40's, black grips were issued on Mauser p08s. Combined with the much blacker dip blueing done on Lugers after 1937, this style of grip legendarily led the late Luger icon, Ralph Shattuck, to call them "Black Widow" Lugers. This may have provided Ralph with a marketing tool, but this invented term has led to much consternation in Luger University. One can create one, theoretically, by slapping a pair of these black grips onto just about any Mauser of the correct year(s?) production. The subsequent increase in value of the grips or gun exists solely in the imagination, the same source of this nickname. I also believe they would sell for a bit more, should you find these grips are original and choose to sweeten the haul, I agree. BTW, an FXO mag usually commands a premium, as well. They are reputed to be the most reliably functioning edition of a Luger mag, of all the originals; and they have WWII history attached...

David Parker

Blockhead · 03-18-2013, 11:20 PM

David, thanks for the info. The two holes on the inside of each grip look tapped to me, so it sounds like they could be legit WWII grips. Were any of the "Black Widow" grips marked in any way?

alanint · 03-19-2013, 07:27 AM

Take the grip screws and see if they smoothly thread into the holes, (that is what they are for, so you don't lose the grip screws). Although the look ok, The checkering seems to lack crispness and the radius around the relief cut for the magazine release looks odd.
One test you can do is to heat up a pin and press it into the back of the grips, someplace where it will be the least noticeable. If it smokes and lets off an odd odor, they are bakelite. If it bubbles and smell like burnt plastic, then they are, well, plastic.

ithacaartist · 03-19-2013, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blockhead

David, thanks for the info. The two holes on the inside of each grip look tapped to me, so it sounds like they could be legit WWII grips. Were any of the "Black Widow" grips marked in any way?

I've not encountered discussion of any marks. I'd guess not, because as a cast product, they'd all be the same--different from hand-fitted wooden ones.

Doug has a good test, and it also works the same way when testing ivory. Someone may weigh in here, with info about what it means that the grips look the way they do. I'm about out of info in this category, now, so I just don't have the specific experience to take you further!

D.

03-12-2013, 08:17 PM	#1
Blockhead User Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 31 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	A decent haul - 1916 Erfurt Picked up this set recently at a great price and would like to have you guys chime in on what I got. This will likely become my shooter luger. The pistol #5670 does not have matching numbers, but it looks like two it has two sets of numbers: "70" is found on the locking bolt, forward toggle link, extractor, and "48" is found on the trigger, connector pin,hold open latch, safety bar, and sear bar and "748" on the frame. Even to my inexperienced eye I can see it has been refinished. One part I'm not familiar with is the side plate. It has some numbers stamped on the inside of the plate that looks like "08" and "CN" with what looks like a cross on the trigger lever. The grips are unmarked black plastic - any way to tell if they are original luger grips (I know they're not original to this pistol). Also, I think I can see a faint waffenamt on the take down tool just below the circle cut-out, but I couldn't get a good pic of it. Does it look legit?

03-12-2013, 08:32 PM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	I guess question one is "have you shot it yet". Two is "does it function properly"? The "+" on your side plate's trigger lever has the appearance of Swiss proof marks. The metal grain on the plate itself looks cast to me. The "P.08" on your holster is not in the correct font. Stitching looks reproduction to me, but others are more expert. Look at the back of the grips to determine if they are original or repro. An Erfurt would not be salt blued and would have strawed small parts. So... if it shoots well that should be a great pistol for you! Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-12-2013, 09:01 PM	#4
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Post photos of the inside of the grips. If they are real, you can sell them and add $250-$300 to you haul and get a nice set of wooden repros for under $100. You could also sell the magazines for $150 or so each and buy cheap Mec-Gars for shooting. You might recoup your entire purchase price by parting it out. Last edited by alanint; 03-13-2013 at 04:51 AM.

03-13-2013, 06:56 AM	#8
Frank B User Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Augusta GA, aus Berlin...:) Posts: 78 Thanks: 20 Thanked 30 Times in 12 Posts	Also, in reproduction holsters, the loops on the back are not at a sloop/angle...and on originals they are slanted. __________________ "Man muss manchmal in den sauren Apfel beißen"

03-13-2013, 06:59 AM	#9
Frank B User Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Augusta GA, aus Berlin...:) Posts: 78 Thanks: 20 Thanked 30 Times in 12 Posts	Here is my wire repair... Attached Thumbnails __________________ "Man muss manchmal in den sauren Apfel beißen"

03-12-2013, 08:25 PM	#2
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Josh, The lower half of your gun comes from a 1941 or 42 Mauser. The frame has the "Mauser hump" and is marked P08 on it's left side. The receiver and toggle train are from a 1916 Erfurt. That side plate may be Swiss. Regards, Norm

03-12-2013, 10:52 PM	#5
Blockhead User Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 31 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	As always, thanks for the info guys. I'll get some pics of the inside of the grips taken, but in the meantime, what am I looking for? Were they marked in some way? And no, I haven't fired it yet, but a basic function check seems to indicate that it will go boom (in the right way, of course). As far as the mags, I would love to trade one for a similar condition late luger fxo magazine without a serial number. Would that be a fair trade? I'll get some more pics of the holster too. I'm certainly no expert, but i'd be surprised that the holster might be a fake. I showed it to a buddy who collects German militaria and he had no issues with it.

03-13-2013, 12:23 AM	#6
Nomadr Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 276 Thanks: 16 Thanked 28 Times in 22 Posts	Is that magazine number 4884 or 4684? is it FXO marked? I have byf 41 4885q Bob

03-13-2013, 06:51 AM	#7
Frank B User Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Augusta GA, aus Berlin...:) Posts: 78 Thanks: 20 Thanked 30 Times in 12 Posts	I am not an expert, but I do think the holster is orginal. On the backside, on the right loop, appears to be a field repair with metal wire? I have a old orginal Heer belt that also had field repair with metal wire...The P08 looks as though it was done after leather was darkened...the proof marks look good to me. Possible the P08 was added by West germany, or DDR...Austria?

03-13-2013, 08:39 AM	#11
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Looks like a great shooter that comes with some good stuff. Jerry will weigh in on the holster and settle that once and for all. I'm betting that it is correct. Good point ont he non-cut receiver. Can we get some close ups on the numbers/markings on the left side? DWM receiver, Erfurt toggle, Mauser lower? dju

03-13-2013, 11:25 PM	#13
Blockhead User Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 31 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	More pics of the grips. Sorry for the poor lighting, but I didn't get around to taking these until after all the natural light was gone.

03-16-2013, 11:59 AM	#14
Blockhead User Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 31 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Better pics of grips with natural light. Any thoughts?

03-18-2013, 02:49 PM	#15
Blockhead User Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 31 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Anyone want to take a stab at what the grips above are?

03-18-2013, 07:51 PM	#16
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	Josh, one of the clues as to whether the grips are repro or original is found by examining the holes on the grips' backsides to see if they are tapped. If they are not, then I believe this would mean they are repro, for certain. Someone will tell us when, but in the 40's, black grips were issued on Mauser p08s. Combined with the much blacker dip blueing done on Lugers after 1937, this style of grip legendarily led the late Luger icon, Ralph Shattuck, to call them "Black Widow" Lugers. This may have provided Ralph with a marketing tool, but this invented term has led to much consternation in Luger University. One can create one, theoretically, by slapping a pair of these black grips onto just about any Mauser of the correct year(s?) production. The subsequent increase in value of the grips or gun exists solely in the imagination, the same source of this nickname. I also believe they would sell for a bit more, should you find these grips are original and choose to sweeten the haul, I agree. BTW, an FXO mag usually commands a premium, as well. They are reputed to be the most reliably functioning edition of a Luger mag, of all the originals; and they have WWII history attached... David Parker __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

03-18-2013, 11:20 PM	#17
Blockhead User Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 31 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	David, thanks for the info. The two holes on the inside of each grip look tapped to me, so it sounds like they could be legit WWII grips. Were any of the "Black Widow" grips marked in any way?

03-19-2013, 07:27 AM	#18
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Take the grip screws and see if they smoothly thread into the holes, (that is what they are for, so you don't lose the grip screws). Although the look ok, The checkering seems to lack crispness and the radius around the relief cut for the magazine release looks odd. One test you can do is to heat up a pin and press it into the back of the grips, someplace where it will be the least noticeable. If it smokes and lets off an odd odor, they are bakelite. If it bubbles and smell like burnt plastic, then they are, well, plastic.