Need info on 1916 DWM Luger

[gmlehmann]

Hope I’m posting to the correct message board. I’m by no means very knowledgeable regarding this so any help/insight would be appreciated.

I have a 1916 DWM Luger that my late father acquired from someone around/after WWII; overall it is in what I would say appears to be in very good condition.

Serial number below barrel on front says 7685 and 85 appears in many other locations; only mismatch I've found is on the rear portion of the cocking lever that says 46. There are 2 original mags w/wooden bases, one marked 5847, the other 4558.

The front area of the pistol grip is stamped with 139.R. 9. c.

Also have brown leather holster with imprinting on the back that says: Auwaerter & Bubeck, A.G., Stuttgart; Also has a date printed that says 1936. There is a ½ inch cut off the bottom front tip, likely with a knife from the looks of the sharp edges of the cut; not sure the reason this may have been done, (drainage/air flow perhaps?).

Also, does anyone have an idea of an approximate value and also if it would hurt the value to clean and oil this gun?

[rhuff]

It is going to be extremely difficult to give you a reasonable estimate of value without photos. These photos need to be close ups of the serial numbers, proofs, top, sides,front of grip strap and also views of the holster.

We already know from your statement above that it is a parts gun since you have parts with serial numbers different from the frame and barrel. That reduces value as it is not of collector interest in this condition. It is placed into a "shooter" category, but the value could still be significant with that holster and the wood bottom mags.

Without photos(good ones that show detail) it would only be a guess.

[gmlehmann]

Thanks rhuff,
I will work on taking a number of photos next and post them ASAP.

I was a bit disheartened to find the different number stamped on the rear portion of the cocking lever as it appears thus far everything else matches, although I know the mags numbers don't match either and I haven't removed the grips yet to see what markings are there yet.

[DavidJayUden]

Don't jump out the window just yet. There are shooters and there are shooters, and a nice gun with one mismatched number will be worth more than a totally mismatched gun.
Send us those photos, as we'd love to have a look. Holster too.
It will not hurt the value to carefully clean and oil the metal. YouTube has excellent instructional videos of the disassembly process. Just be very patient removing that left grip panel from the frame. Lift it straight away and it will chip.
dju

[gmlehmann]

Thanks David,
I just didn't want to harm the value until I was certain about the cleaning and oiling. I saw several of the videos on YouTube as well and am sure I could clean it well as long as I take the time to do it right; also have the option of a police officer I know that has all the equipment needed, I know he would do a great job and may be able to do a more thorough initial cleaning than I may be able to.

I'm uploading photos now as well, hopefully not overkill as this is the first time I've done this here.

[gmlehmann]

Holster pics

[Edward Tinker]

Welcome to the forum.

Kinda a gruesome avatar?

[gmlehmann]

Thanks for the welcome Edward.

Sorry about the avatar, just the result of some design work I like to do occasionally; guess you could say I like that kind of thing.

[DavidJayUden]

Is that a date of 1934 on the holster?
About the gun, we still need to know more about the internal numbers to be certain that they match. If that rear toggle link is the only stray part, just remember that one of every 99 out there is the one you need.
So do you want to sell or just understand its value? Probably worth more to you because of the family connection, and once you sell it, it is gone, gone, gone.
If someone approached me with that gun and holster, I'd want to pay no more than $900, but a new guy wanting their first shooter/low end collector Luger might give you closer to $1100. And I admit that I am a card-carrying, bottom feeding, cheap S.O.B. That's why I have more guns than regrets. But let's see what the others say about that.
And the book guys can tell you what the grip frame "unit marks" represent too.
Nice gun.
dju

[Edward Tinker]

It looks likes nice one. Is the rear toggle the only mismatch? Because if true, it's a good one. Nice army and a police mag too.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Glenn..Yes..nice pistol. I wouldn't worry too much about one mismatched number if that's all..unit mark is nice.
The holster is unfortunate. God only knows why someone cut the toe. Other things wrong with it could be fixed but the toe cut is a toughie. Only thing to do there is to cut a piece just like it from a dead donor holster and fit it in.
Beautiful magazines!

[gmlehmann]

@David: Yes, the holster does appear to be dated 1934.
Until I dig deeper I don’t know if the rear toggle link is the only mismatch. Are there any diagrams or links that may tell me all the parts to look for? If the rear toggle link is the only mismatch where should I try to look in hopes of finding one with a matching number?
Not sure at this point whether I’d want to sell it as it does have some sentimental value. What I would like to do at the very least is perhaps get it to a safe condition and actually do some shooting with it just to have the experience; of course I wouldn’t want to do that either until I substitute more modern mags as I wouldn’t want to risk damaging the originals.
As for your self proclaimed card carrying membership; not sure I’d be as harsh to describe anyone that way as we all tend to look and hope for the best deals we can find.
I would love to find out what the grip frame unit marks mean, I think that would be a very interesting part of the history to know.

@Edward: As I told David above, I don’t know if the rear toggle link is the only mismatch until I dig deeper. A reference of what parts would be numbered would be helpful if there is one available.
Once I break it down more I’ll likely try to take more photos for future reference; David was also kind enough to warn me to be very careful when removing the left grip as well.
I assume the mag with the “1” on it is the army and the other the police one? Does the absence of a “1” or “2” usually indicate a police mag?

@ Jerry: Thank you, I hope to keep it in as nice a condition as I can, I’m almost certain it hasn’t been cleaned or oiled since my father obtained it in the 40’s or 50’s.
Wish I had an idea as to why someone notched out the toe of the holster as well, even if for nothing more than curiosity sake. Maybe it was to cover up the hole when they almost shot themselves in the foot perhaps? Just kidding….maybe; at the least it sounds like a fun explanation to tell people anyway.
What is the small pocket inside the holster lid for? All I can think is that maybe it held the takedown tool.

I’d like to thank you all for the help and info you have given me thus far, I’m finding it very helpful and am learning much more than I knew before.

[alanint]

Welcome, Glenn,

As to the magazines, it is the reverse. The one with the large "1" is the police magazine and the other one with the small acceptance stamp would be the army. As to the holster, 1934 dated holsters are scarse and collectable. If it were mine, I would send it to Jerry Burney for repair and preservation. The small pocket inside is for the takedown tool, as you stated.
The cut at the bottom of the holster may have been to remove an area that had frayed through. The leather on the back of this lower section is oddly wrinkled and may have been the result of water immersion or heat.


The halos around the barrel numbers indicate that the finish is original. The gun is in very nice shape. If all the other numbers match, finding a rear toggle link with the right number would not be impossible. I would start with the site's "wanted" section.
Congratulations on a nice heirloom!

[Lugerdoc]

David, Sorry no #85 DWM rear toggle link in stock. TH

[gmlehmann]

@Doug: Thanks for clearing that up for me, I thought the numbered mags were the ones for military use.
The wrinkling on the back of the holster was strange to me too, thought maybe somehow it had been crushed. With regard to the cut toe, Jerry mentioned in an earlier post that the only thing to do would be to cut a piece just like it from a dead donor holster and fit it in. Thanks for the recommendation about preservation; I’ll consult with Jerry in the future about any options.
As for the gun finish, I thought it was original but it’s always good to hear when others are in agreement.

@Tom: Thanks for the info; if you do ever happen to come across a #85 DWM rear toggle link I would appreciate if you could keep me on the short list.

[rhuff]

Glen,

You photos reveal a very nice looking apparently original finish Luger. That is a dandy. As you break it down for cleaning and lube you can check the internal numbers on the breachblock, the firing pin,grips, etc. If it is all matching except for the rear toggle link, then if it were mine, I would begin a quest for that part to make the Luger whole. As stated, one out of 100 rear toggle links had that number on it. I would start by placing a want to buy in that area of this forum. You should be proud of that Luger, I know I would be.

[gmlehmann]

Thanks Richard, as I break it down I’m going to take photos as well.
As for the rear toggle link I’ll post a want to buy in the area you suggested after I have a chance to inspect the rest of the gun/parts; figure if I find one to match mine I can always post my current one for sale to offset the cost.

[ithacaartist]

Welcome to the forum, Glenn,
I'd like to compliment the pics you've posted so far. They are in focus and well lighted, which helps these other guys in their assessment of your pistol--excellent! Oh, and the Luger is pretty sweet, too; kudos on your stewardship!

Another sign that the finish is original is that the toggle axlel's retaining pin, visible atop the left toggle knob in pics #6 and #9, is "in the white", or unfinished. This is because the front and rear links were rust blued separately, by hand, before they were assembled with a pin that is unfinished, to provide another clue to the originality of your Luger's finish.

David Parker

[DavidJayUden]

About that goggle pin, it is also not pushed all the way in. A result of it being removed to install the stray toggle link.
Also don't stop at looking for the part itself. But also watch for a mismatched shooter with the correct part number and original finish. Buy it, trade rear toggle links, then resell it at little loss.
dju

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

About that goggle pin, it is also not pushed all the way in. A result of it being removed to install the stray toggle link.
dju

Oops, one of the first things I noticed (kinda hard to miss!) but forgot to mention the pin is slightly proud...it was late. I agree with David as to why it is so--as Occam's razor suggests, the least complicated explanation usually is closest to reality!

D.P.