A suspect byf 41

Doug G. · 05-02-2013, 04:30 PM

Was looking at Gun Broker and saw this one. After looking it over pretty good I noticed something odd with the 1 on the side plate. I think it has been forced matched? Opinions.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=339294548

mrerick · 05-02-2013, 04:36 PM

Should also be the digit "5" stamped inside the side plate.

Marc

DavidJayUden · 05-02-2013, 05:22 PM

The seller is associated with this forum, and I would expect them to respond.
dju

sheepherder · 05-02-2013, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

The seller is associated with this forum, and I would expect them to respond.
dju

Tom or Andy??? I haven't seen a general announcement, but I believe they are running Legacy now...

mrerick · 05-02-2013, 07:05 PM

As David mentioned, the sellers are associated with this forum, and have a reputation for integrity.

Checking inside the side plate would be the first thing I'd check on if you're concerned about a force match. Sometimes you will see inconsistencies with Mauser s/n stamping.

I have two that have anomalies. One is inconsistently deep. The other has an overstamped digit (the adjacent digit stamped in the wrong position, then overstamped with the correct one).

Marc

Doug G. · 05-02-2013, 10:28 PM

What I find odd is the 1 on the side plate does not match the style of the 1's that appear elsewhere on the gun. Could it be right? Not sure, but as I said suspect.

tharpo · 05-03-2013, 01:59 AM

Here is something to ponder. The serial number of the gun is question is 415n. According to authors Hallock and Van de Kant in the book, The Mauser Parabellum, no 1941 byf's have been verified in the "n" block. Production for 41 byf's started in the "o" block.

Frank · 05-03-2013, 09:25 AM

I've been waiting. When I first saw the auction several days ago, I thought something stinks.

Tom has pointed out some of my concerns, but there are more. I'll wait a while to let the detectives look for more clues.

Have fun!!

minigun · 05-03-2013, 01:18 PM

Legacy is GREAT! Their return policy probably can't be beat, basically if you don't like it you can return it and there's no hassel and NO reshelving fee or restocking fee or whatever that fee is that some do. At least the couple of things I returned didn't have that and I had NO hassels.

I'm not even close to an expert on these, but I would think the side plate numbering should match up to the other "1's" on the pistol's parts. Also, check out the serial number under the barrel and the caliber stamp. To me, that doens't look right (to me). And, I would check the stampings in the side plate or ask him to do that.

These Lugers are scary if you are new, accasionally getting into them here and there, etc. There's so many out there with legit mistakes from the factory that appear fake or fake things that are just so hard to spot if you don't know what you are looking at or for. And, easily overlooked when you first start examining the pistol. Then, when looking at a potential pistol, how far do you go with it for examination with the seller, especially at a gunshow? Hard to see details that can easily be overlooked.

Frank · 05-03-2013, 03:48 PM

minigun, no one is casting dispersions on the honesty of Tom Whiteman or Legacy. All we are saying is there appears to be many questions about the Luger!!!

LugerVern · 05-04-2013, 03:43 PM

Mauser used mixed fonts, you can find ones ("1s") with and without horizontal feet. Added to this the darn side plates often look like the grain goes the wrong way. It gives you the impression of forced matching, but it's not!

This drive me crazy and even though as a collector you should spot this sort of thing, in this case it may mean nothing.

I suspect that Mauser and DWM used assembly stations differently and the result is the mixed fonts- just a guess on this but it would explain how this happens so often.

Vern

PS: Legacy is a good place to do business, it's our hobby that's complicated!

SteveM · 05-04-2013, 08:32 PM

The serial number on the barrel is very near on top of the barrel gauge. I don't ever remember seeing one this close before. Also, to me, the 5 on the sideplate could be suspect as compared to the rest of the pistol.

LugerVern · 05-04-2013, 08:58 PM

The sear bar is a bit unusual?

BYF 41's come in some off the wall configuration, NS and yes even "n's".

Notice the mixed fonts and even the different size "o's", in this example

I seriously don't like the sear bar however.

Vern

tharpo · 05-04-2013, 09:15 PM

Here is a G Date from the same seller with what appears to be a similar finish to the 41 byf. I can't seem to see a letter suffix on the front of the frame. Didn't all G Dates have a suffix?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=339463814

minigun · 05-04-2013, 10:04 PM

Oh, I wasn't thinking anyone was downing Legacy or anything. I was just adding my experiences to the mix.

LugerVern · 05-04-2013, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tharpo

Didn't all G Dates have a suffix?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=339463814

Simpson's has G date SN 1585 with no suffix for sale at this time.

I noticed the finish also on the byf 41, the G date however is professionally restored, so the finish is really not in question, you either like it or you don't.

Vern

05-02-2013, 04:30 PM	#1
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	A suspect byf 41 Was looking at Gun Broker and saw this one. After looking it over pretty good I noticed something odd with the 1 on the side plate. I think it has been forced matched? Opinions. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=339294548 __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

05-02-2013, 04:36 PM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Should also be the digit "5" stamped inside the side plate. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-02-2013, 07:05 PM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	As David mentioned, the sellers are associated with this forum, and have a reputation for integrity. Checking inside the side plate would be the first thing I'd check on if you're concerned about a force match. Sometimes you will see inconsistencies with Mauser s/n stamping. I have two that have anomalies. One is inconsistently deep. The other has an overstamped digit (the adjacent digit stamped in the wrong position, then overstamped with the correct one). Marc Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-02-2013, 10:28 PM	#6
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	What I find odd is the 1 on the side plate does not match the style of the 1's that appear elsewhere on the gun. Could it be right? Not sure, but as I said suspect. __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

05-04-2013, 08:58 PM	#13
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	The sear bar is a bit unusual? BYF 41's come in some off the wall configuration, NS and yes even "n's". Notice the mixed fonts and even the different size "o's", in this example I seriously don't like the sear bar however. Vern Attached Images

05-02-2013, 05:22 PM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	The seller is associated with this forum, and I would expect them to respond. dju

05-03-2013, 01:59 AM	#7
tharpo Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: West Coast, USA Posts: 543 Thanks: 116 Thanked 382 Times in 157 Posts	Here is something to ponder. The serial number of the gun is question is 415n. According to authors Hallock and Van de Kant in the book, The Mauser Parabellum, no 1941 byf's have been verified in the "n" block. Production for 41 byf's started in the "o" block.

05-03-2013, 09:25 AM	#8
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	I've been waiting. When I first saw the auction several days ago, I thought something stinks. Tom has pointed out some of my concerns, but there are more. I'll wait a while to let the detectives look for more clues. Have fun!!

05-03-2013, 01:18 PM	#9
minigun User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 424 Thanks: 15 Thanked 19 Times in 14 Posts	Legacy is GREAT! Their return policy probably can't be beat, basically if you don't like it you can return it and there's no hassel and NO reshelving fee or restocking fee or whatever that fee is that some do. At least the couple of things I returned didn't have that and I had NO hassels. I'm not even close to an expert on these, but I would think the side plate numbering should match up to the other "1's" on the pistol's parts. Also, check out the serial number under the barrel and the caliber stamp. To me, that doens't look right (to me). And, I would check the stampings in the side plate or ask him to do that. These Lugers are scary if you are new, accasionally getting into them here and there, etc. There's so many out there with legit mistakes from the factory that appear fake or fake things that are just so hard to spot if you don't know what you are looking at or for. And, easily overlooked when you first start examining the pistol. Then, when looking at a potential pistol, how far do you go with it for examination with the seller, especially at a gunshow? Hard to see details that can easily be overlooked.

05-03-2013, 03:48 PM	#10
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	minigun, no one is casting dispersions on the honesty of Tom Whiteman or Legacy. All we are saying is there appears to be many questions about the Luger!!!

05-04-2013, 03:43 PM	#11
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Mauser used mixed fonts, you can find ones ("1s") with and without horizontal feet. Added to this the darn side plates often look like the grain goes the wrong way. It gives you the impression of forced matching, but it's not! This drive me crazy and even though as a collector you should spot this sort of thing, in this case it may mean nothing. I suspect that Mauser and DWM used assembly stations differently and the result is the mixed fonts- just a guess on this but it would explain how this happens so often. Vern PS: Legacy is a good place to do business, it's our hobby that's complicated!

05-04-2013, 08:32 PM	#12
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	The serial number on the barrel is very near on top of the barrel gauge. I don't ever remember seeing one this close before. Also, to me, the 5 on the sideplate could be suspect as compared to the rest of the pistol.

05-04-2013, 09:15 PM	#14
tharpo Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: West Coast, USA Posts: 543 Thanks: 116 Thanked 382 Times in 157 Posts	Here is a G Date from the same seller with what appears to be a similar finish to the 41 byf. I can't seem to see a letter suffix on the front of the frame. Didn't all G Dates have a suffix? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=339463814

05-04-2013, 10:04 PM	#15
minigun User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 424 Thanks: 15 Thanked 19 Times in 14 Posts	Oh, I wasn't thinking anyone was downing Legacy or anything. I was just adding my experiences to the mix.