Swiss Pistol 1900 with wide trigger

Stucki · 08-19-2013, 04:09 PM

Swiss Pistol 1900 with SN 4355. This gun belonged to a lot of 1500 unnumbered parts sets which were delivered in 1903/04 from DWM to Switzerland. They were assembled in 1903/04/05 by the Waffenfabrik Bern (W+F). That was the last delivery of Pistols 1900 the Swiss Army. In 1906 the delivery of Pistols 1900/06 began. In 1934 the pistol was transferred to private possession.

Typical for this variation of the Pistol 1900 is the wide trigger. One can find it on the last 1100 to 1500 Pistols 1900 (between SN 3500 or 3900 to SN 5000; the information in the literature is contradictory). The aim of the wide trigger was a better trigger control for target shooting. It seems that the wide trigger was only produced by W+F but not by the DWM.

The pistol has the reinforced extractor made by W+F and still the original "V"-shaped rear sight.

I’m interested in SN of Pistols 1900 with wide triggers below SN 4000.

Alexander

Ron Wood · 08-19-2013, 06:06 PM

Alexander,
I own #3185, Major Vogelsang control mark, no modifications or privatization mark.

Simpson's Ltd. has #3969 and #3916 listed on their site. I have seen one other with a serial number lower than mine, 30XX as I recall, but I am sorry I didn't record the exact number.

Stucki · 08-20-2013, 02:02 PM

Thanks Ron

I suppose your pistol and the other one with SN 30XX do not have a wide trigger - correct?

Alexander

Ron Wood · 08-20-2013, 02:37 PM

No, not correct. Both pistols do have the wide trigger. You stated that you are interested in SN of Pistols 1900 with wide triggers below SN 4000 so that is why I responded with the serial numbers. My memory about the 30XX pistol may be incorrect but my #3185 does have a wide trigger that is properly numbered to the gun.

Stucki · 08-20-2013, 04:09 PM

Hello Ron

wide triggers below SN 3500 - unusual, very interesting - thanks

Alexander

Dick Herman · 08-20-2013, 04:41 PM

My Swiss Military Md 1900 with the properly numbered wide trigger is number 3989. I believe it was manufactured in 1905.

Ron Wood · 08-20-2013, 04:57 PM

Alexander,
I can understand if you are doubtful...I have had some concerns about it as well. I have owned the gun for a long time, over 20 years, and it is in near mint condition typical of a Swiss refurbishment. I paid a very reasonable price, not at all reflecting its scarce status. It is 100% Model 1900 with a Type II safety and proper square side plate. All the numbering is correct with all being in the same style font. The last two digit serial number on the trigger is stamped with the same font as the frame and not pantographed. I know that it is well below the "accepted" serial number range so that always raises a cautionary flag.

Stucki · 08-20-2013, 06:21 PM

Ron

the director of the W+F wrote in a letter to the Kriegsmaterialverwaltung in October 1903, that during 1903 the W+F assemble 500 pistols (SN 3501 to 4000). Further he confirmed that he has received the drawings of a wide trigger in Mai 1903.

That could be evidence that the wide triggers came not before October 1903 and after around SN3500. On the other hand, it’s possible that triggers were changed afterwards by the W+F.

What I have learned during many years of collection, not everything which is unusual is not correct or a fake. Therefore your Pistol 1900, SN3185 with wide trigger can be absolutely all right. Even more, it’s an interesting gun because it’s unusual.

Alexander

Sergio Natali · 08-21-2013, 02:30 PM

This topic is quite interesting, I've done some research about it and found something also on Vittorio Bobba's "PARABELLUM A TECHNICAL HISTORY OF SWISS LUGERS" (page 86) Anyway once again "chapeau" to Ron Wood.

Stucki · 08-21-2013, 04:42 PM

Bobba's text is based on the the books of Häusler and Rutsch and Rutsch is probably based on Häusler. I suppose that Häusler has made his own observations and collected SN. He writes, that we can find wide triggers between SN 3900 and 5000.

However, Sturgess who has made a lot of first hand research, has the opinion, that wide triggers were used above approximately SN 3500.

The Director of Waffenfabrik Bern writes on 17 October 1903 in a letter to the Kriegsmaterialverwaltung (Ordonance Department), that on 2 May 1903 he got the drawings of the wide trigger from G. Luger/DWM. And he also mentioned, that in 1903 the Waffenfabrik will assemble pistols with SN 3501 to 4000. (according to a document in the Swiss National Archive)

Therefore I think that the Waffenfabrik began to assemble pistols with wide triggers earliest with SN 3501. Earlier pistols were assembled by DWM and I think they all had originally normal triggers.

However, as I allready said, it's possible that the Waffenfabrik changed triggers of earlier pistols afterwards. Especially when the owner of the gun would have brought his pistol to the Waffenfabrik with a appropriate request.

Alexander

Ben M. · 08-21-2013, 04:59 PM

if i were a target shooter in the swiss army, could i not buy a wide trigger and place it on any gun. especially if they were made, as stucki stated, in switzerland and not at dwm?

are they interchangeable with each other or does the frame need to be revised to accept a wider trigger?

08-19-2013, 04:09 PM	#1
Stucki User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 84 Thanks: 1 Thanked 130 Times in 34 Posts	Swiss Pistol 1900 with wide trigger Swiss Pistol 1900 with SN 4355. This gun belonged to a lot of 1500 unnumbered parts sets which were delivered in 1903/04 from DWM to Switzerland. They were assembled in 1903/04/05 by the Waffenfabrik Bern (W+F). That was the last delivery of Pistols 1900 the Swiss Army. In 1906 the delivery of Pistols 1900/06 began. In 1934 the pistol was transferred to private possession. Typical for this variation of the Pistol 1900 is the wide trigger. One can find it on the last 1100 to 1500 Pistols 1900 (between SN 3500 or 3900 to SN 5000; the information in the literature is contradictory). The aim of the wide trigger was a better trigger control for target shooting. It seems that the wide trigger was only produced by W+F but not by the DWM. The pistol has the reinforced extractor made by W+F and still the original "V"-shaped rear sight. I’m interested in SN of Pistols 1900 with wide triggers below SN 4000. Alexander Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Stucki; 08-21-2013 at 02:08 AM.

08-19-2013, 06:06 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Alexander, I own #3185, Major Vogelsang control mark, no modifications or privatization mark. Simpson's Ltd. has #3969 and #3916 listed on their site. I have seen one other with a serial number lower than mine, 30XX as I recall, but I am sorry I didn't record the exact number. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 08-19-2013 at 06:54 PM.

08-20-2013, 02:37 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	No, not correct. Both pistols do have the wide trigger. You stated that you are interested in SN of Pistols 1900 with wide triggers below SN 4000 so that is why I responded with the serial numbers. My memory about the 30XX pistol may be incorrect but my #3185 does have a wide trigger that is properly numbered to the gun. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-20-2013, 04:57 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Alexander, I can understand if you are doubtful...I have had some concerns about it as well. I have owned the gun for a long time, over 20 years, and it is in near mint condition typical of a Swiss refurbishment. I paid a very reasonable price, not at all reflecting its scarce status. It is 100% Model 1900 with a Type II safety and proper square side plate. All the numbering is correct with all being in the same style font. The last two digit serial number on the trigger is stamped with the same font as the frame and not pantographed. I know that it is well below the "accepted" serial number range so that always raises a cautionary flag. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-20-2013, 06:21 PM	#8
Stucki User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 84 Thanks: 1 Thanked 130 Times in 34 Posts	Ron the director of the W+F wrote in a letter to the Kriegsmaterialverwaltung in October 1903, that during 1903 the W+F assemble 500 pistols (SN 3501 to 4000). Further he confirmed that he has received the drawings of a wide trigger in Mai 1903. That could be evidence that the wide triggers came not before October 1903 and after around SN3500. On the other hand, it’s possible that triggers were changed afterwards by the W+F. What I have learned during many years of collection, not everything which is unusual is not correct or a fake. Therefore your Pistol 1900, SN3185 with wide trigger can be absolutely all right. Even more, it’s an interesting gun because it’s unusual. Alexander Last edited by Stucki; 08-21-2013 at 02:10 AM.

08-20-2013, 02:02 PM	#3
Stucki User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 84 Thanks: 1 Thanked 130 Times in 34 Posts	Thanks Ron I suppose your pistol and the other one with SN 30XX do not have a wide trigger - correct? Alexander

08-20-2013, 04:09 PM	#5
Stucki User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 84 Thanks: 1 Thanked 130 Times in 34 Posts	Hello Ron wide triggers below SN 3500 - unusual, very interesting - thanks Alexander

08-20-2013, 04:41 PM	#6
Dick Herman User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 302 Thanks: 496 Thanked 354 Times in 138 Posts	My Swiss Military Md 1900 with the properly numbered wide trigger is number 3989. I believe it was manufactured in 1905.

08-21-2013, 02:30 PM	#9
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	This topic is quite interesting, I've done some research about it and found something also on Vittorio Bobba's "PARABELLUM A TECHNICAL HISTORY OF SWISS LUGERS" (page 86) Anyway once again "chapeau" to Ron Wood.

08-21-2013, 04:42 PM	#10
Stucki User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 84 Thanks: 1 Thanked 130 Times in 34 Posts	Bobba's text is based on the the books of Häusler and Rutsch and Rutsch is probably based on Häusler. I suppose that Häusler has made his own observations and collected SN. He writes, that we can find wide triggers between SN 3900 and 5000. However, Sturgess who has made a lot of first hand research, has the opinion, that wide triggers were used above approximately SN 3500. The Director of Waffenfabrik Bern writes on 17 October 1903 in a letter to the Kriegsmaterialverwaltung (Ordonance Department), that on 2 May 1903 he got the drawings of the wide trigger from G. Luger/DWM. And he also mentioned, that in 1903 the Waffenfabrik will assemble pistols with SN 3501 to 4000. (according to a document in the Swiss National Archive) Therefore I think that the Waffenfabrik began to assemble pistols with wide triggers earliest with SN 3501. Earlier pistols were assembled by DWM and I think they all had originally normal triggers. However, as I allready said, it's possible that the Waffenfabrik changed triggers of earlier pistols afterwards. Especially when the owner of the gun would have brought his pistol to the Waffenfabrik with a appropriate request. Alexander

08-21-2013, 04:59 PM	#11
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 488 Thanks: 90 Thanked 123 Times in 83 Posts	if i were a target shooter in the swiss army, could i not buy a wide trigger and place it on any gun. especially if they were made, as stucki stated, in switzerland and not at dwm? are they interchangeable with each other or does the frame need to be revised to accept a wider trigger?