Fakes

Just thinking (not a good deal for me) what if there was a statement or certificate of authenticy provided by a board of collectors or members of an organization specializing in lugers? The gun would be sent to the board, researched, then a statement provided as to the genuiness of the gun. This certificate could be handled like a car title but go with the gun from owner to owner.(no owners listed) The Luger Board of Authenticity would keep the SN, photos, and description on file and have it available as a data base for members to check on if requested. All for a fee of course. Ya'll are smart guys,if you set up this forum you could do the other.


Roadkill

Won't work.....


Has been tried but it really becomes contentious! Can you imagine if the board says one of Ralph's is a fake..? and Ralph said it is not?....[like his BYF 1940?] People say it is not possible...others say it might be a prototype. others say B***S**T Which expert would you believe?


Boy...would things get hot in short order! and no one could prove their stance!


I could tell you a story about a Stoeger Artillery and a bunch of experts...[all wrong!]


The Shadow Knows....

been there...

done that!

[G.T.]

It was best stated in a letter to NAPCA, when this was brought to everyones attention several years ago......."Who's watching the watchers? ...The best chance, and the only chance, you have as a collector, is to arm yourself with knowledge!!! As I have said before, if you don't live and breath it, stay on the porch! G.T's rule of life number 15, "The only two people I trust is me and you, and I ain't so sure about you!" Quoted from my Father!

He made it to 83, and I never seen him get beat on a gun deal! till....later...G.T.

This was tried by coin organizations and it can work. You don't ever claim something is a fake, that would not make sense. You simply provide documentation regarding individual's or the organization's opinion regarding the type and characteristics of a particular gun. For example, on the org's letterhead you can state the finish and parts appear to be those that left the factory or state the parts appear to be those that left the factory but no statement can be advanced regarding the date of the finish, for example. You can also simply refuse to make a statement expressing your opinion on a particular gun. If over time, letters of opinion regarding authenticity only appear on those guns that are generally accepted to be authentic, the organization will gain a degree of credibility and the letters will become trusted. Never can the org's opinion be accepted as perfect but it can become respected as nearly so if conservative and accurate. If someone tries for years to get a letter of opinion and is unsuccessful, he will have to provide additional supporting evidence or give up.

What would stop folks that are inclined to produce "fakes" from not producing fake certificates ?


Then what...?

[Aaron]

Coins are regularly authenticated by third party organizations. The coins are then sealed in a marked transparent container to prevent future tampering. I suppose this could be done with guns, but who wants to permanently seal a gun in such a container?

[bill m]

Hi,

I think something like this would work, but it would have to take some thought. One problem I think you would find would be finding enough people qualified to tell what is original and what isn't, and then get them all together to make a judgement on an item. Lets face it, the few people that can tell what is what are mostly in business for themselves. This "board" would really "piss" some people off, no doubt, and if you took the job, you'd have to be able to take the heat. It would be a very good thing for the collecting world. The bottom line about all fakes and counterfiets and refinished guns is: YOU DO NOT READ ENOUGH, YOU DO NOT EXAMINE AND COMPARE ENOUGH, AND YOU DO NOT GO TO COLLECTORS IN YOUR AREA AND LEARN FROM THEM. IF YOU COULD TELL A FAKE, NO ONE WOULD BUY THEM. A board to inspect your new purchase really isn't going to solve the problem -- your knowledge is, and that takes a lot of time, dedication, study, and someone to SHOW you personally what is what. You can read and try to learn on your own, but you're not going to get the job done, as there is too much to learn and too many tricks. One needs to get help! Sincerely -- Bill M

Yes Bill, I think you are right (as are others), although an excellcent idea, the cost would be expensive just in shipping the Luger to others (one alternative), or be biased by only "certain" people able to judge an item (i.e. there are four dealers and three collectors in California willing to get together) and even charging a fee for the services.


This could inflate some values of those guns that were judged and someone might not be able to pay for the judging or refuse and feel that this was unfair.


I like the idea, but imagine that it would be virtually impossible to set up. Plus, I believe there are some valuable Lugers sitting in desk drawers (not me tho!) that feel they have worthless or shooter items and in reality are rare variations. My point is, that even from experts, they sometimes screw up or don't believe that a weapon is valuable, when it very well could be.


ED

Credible authentication and evaluation generally requires such things as:


staff with credentials

reference collection

comprehensive collection of literature to reference

mlm said:"What would stop folks that are inclined to produce "fakes" from not producing fake certificates ? Then what...?"


Since the certificates would be numbered, a database of all certificates would be on file on a website. You go to the website, punch in your certificate number and a description and serial number are provided along with the grade. So it would be easy to tell if a certificate was forged.

It sounds like what you guys are after is an APPRAISIAL by a know luger authority. This would list the pistol by serial number, giving all the points that qualify it (or not) as being all original and it's market (replacement) value at the time for insurance purposes. In most cases, this will be higher than what you probably would pay for it yourself. I have done many of these in the past, primarily for family heirlooms to be insured or valued by an estate. Given that Colt Factory letter are now going for several hundred dollars depending on the model, and are easily altered. A knowledgable appraiser that is putting his reputation on the line, will probably want to charge in the same ball park, to authenticate a particular pistol, giving its histoy, production totals, condition and value. I'll be happy to provide this service on any pistol that I sell for $100 extra. How many of you are willing to pay the price? Tom h

I am working on a book for the beginning Luger Collector. Simple, straight forward, to the point. I plan to cover the rudementary basics of the hobby and ways to spot an obvious fake. Not a price guide but rather a guide to the most common mistakes Luger collectors make. (myself included) I welcome any imput you guys could give me. I am writing it not to make money but rather as an educational guide to send new collectors for a fair fee. The distribution could come from one of the forum members. I think like NAPCA, except on a smaller scale we could create an organization to promote our common interests and goals. God knows we have enough qualified experts to make this a reality and save new collectors from costly mistakes. Have a news letter bi-monthly(six times a year) We could print anything we want; dealer alerts, fakes, articles, etc. Just another brilliant idea! Oh and a national meeting each year like the Colt guys do!


Tim

This is what I meant. An apprasial by an expert(s) with a

certificate of authenticity. If I were looking at an expensive gun and had doubts and the seller was not inclined to an apprasial by a disinterested paid third party(ies)then the alert signals should come up. I would recommend a standard apprasial form (like a real estate), a point value in each area of apprasial, then a rating to go with the gun in some form. $100 is minimal when considering a $3,000 rig for collector purposes. Could also be used for locating stolen guns.


Roadkill

[bill m]

Hi Tom,

I remember a couple of years ago when I wanted to buy some Lugers from you, that were listed in Auto Mag. I called you and visited and thought I asked all the right questions, but forgot to ask if they were reblued and import marked. When I received them, I called you letting you know I was disappointed and was returning them, and I remember your comment: " I guess I should have mentioned that they were refinished and import marked", and "they are what they are". To get an APPRAISIAL from the same guy selling the item would be a GREAT SCAM. No thank you! -- Bill Munis

Bill, Sorry if you were disappointed in the past. I certainly would have sent you a refund, if the pistols were returned. Sometimes the price of a pistol, is a good indicator. I'm currently selling the the imports at half the price that a collector grade matching PO8 would bring. How often do you purchase anything at half price and expect it to be a jewel? Sorry for any misunderstanding. Tom h.