Artillery Holster Rig Real or Repo ?

[kro]

This rig has been in the family awhile but never paid it much mind till I got interested in Lugers. I always assumed it was real but after following this forum and seeing that repo's have been around for a long time I would like an evaluation by the experts. Please give me your opinions.

[ithacaartist]

Ken,

This one looks pretty original to me--also in darned good shape; however, the real experts will give an evaluation backed up by a bit more expertise!

A point of maintenance here, you should clean off the verdigris, that turquoise-colored goop that's accumulating around the brass fittings. It is produced by the interaction of the copper in the brass' alloy and the residual chemicals from tanning in the leather. The substance is not good to have on your holster. BTW, for storage purposes, it's not good to keep the pistol in the holster over any appreciable length of time, either, as the same chemistry in the leather can be quite deleterious to the finish of a pistol.

[Norme]

Hi Ken, The holster and shoulder strap are repros, the pouch looks to be Portuguese (a picture of it's back is needed), the stock boot and it's strap look original as does the cleaning rod.
Regards, Norm

[kro]

Thanks for any info

[John Sabato]

An "early" (older) reproduction holster in my opinion. Much higher quality than is usually encountered in reproductions produced today... but a reproduction none-the-less.

The stock is original... Fine inletting... the days of quality gunsmithing... long passed.

I also concur with the observations made by David and Norm.

[kro]

More pics

[lugersrkewl]

Oh wow thats a beauty matching mag too! I like that the rear sight and front sight are both adjustable. Thanks for the photos

[kro]

After looking at it more closely I found marking on the inside of the holster flap. What do you think.

[Norme]

Hi Ken, The German maker's mark changes my opinion of the holster from reproduction to fake. The pouch is, as I suspected, Portuguese. The stock looks like the real deal.
Regards, Norm

[kro]

Thanks guys for your help. For my on education what are some the features that you see that indicate the holster is not original. I would like to know the signs so I don't make a mistake in the future.

[Norme]

Hi Ken, Individual expression was not encouraged in Imperial Germany (or later for that matter) and military equipment was constructed to strict specifications. Any variance from the specified stitching pattern is a sure sign that a holster is fake. Compare the stitching on the closure strap of an authentic Artillery holster to yours, and you'll see the difference.
Regards, Norm

[kro]

Thanks for sharing I see what you are talking about. This must have been put together a long time ago judging by the look of the leather. At least the stock looks to be original. Any idea as to the value of the gun and stock. It's not for sale so I can't buy it but would like to know in case others come along.

[John Sabato]

Judging of the authenticity of an historical artifact takes some lengthy first hand study and evaluation of similar artifacts.

Personally, In FIFTY+ years of interest in German Lugers... I have examined a healthy number of veteran bring back war trophies... to include their holsters, belts, buckles, magazine pouches, and ammunition. I have been privileged to handle some very unique specimens in very expensive collections of well known people. That doesn't make me an expert, but it does make me experienced.

What I feel I have become an expert at, is learning what is important information from the other experienced people I am privileged to meet, and the items I am privileged to examine.

Most all of the active membership here, also participates in the AXIS PISTOLS forum that is owned by Jan C. Still... because there is so much to be learned.

In a dozen years of moderating this forum, and studying good photographs on the auction sites, and photographs that have been emailed to me from all over the world, I probably have looked at a thousand or more holsters... that is experience that you just can't readily fork over to a new enthusiasts in a short checklist... With that said, I will offer this...

One of two things that I specifically look for are the uniformity of the aging of the leather (in this case the front or housing portion of the holster doesn't seem to match the wear and tear and age of the smaller pieces of the kit).

The second thing, as Norm has pointed out, would be the stitching... the sewing on the authentic German holsters just has a certain "look" about it, that the fakes and reproductions can't seem to provide... though they come darn close. I get fooled more than once in a while, but my education here is a cumulative thing... one gets better at it with time.

As you read the posts in the Holster forum, take a close look at the photographs of the holsters that have been declared as genuine by the membership. You will find hints of why they think so... or why they didn't think so... that is where you learn.

Our Lugerforum is the largest collective brain trust in the world...that focuses specifically on the history, engineering, manufacture, use, and collection of the Luger pistol and it's accessories. A day doesn't pass when I don't learn something here I didn't know on the subject.

Any purchase that I would consider making would include sharing what I know about the item I intended to purchase, including the best photographs I could obtain, with the "experts"... and getting their opinions... for FREE.

Virtually all world class researchers and authors of the published references on Lugers, either actively participate here, or quietly sit back in stealth lurking mode, and read the speculations offered here. Their commentaries here have made armchair experts out of "newbies" in a very short time.

...and my last piece of advice is whatever people like Jerry Burney (Lugerholsterrepair) and Bill Lyon say regarding historic German leather is GOLD. Put it in your information bank, and never spend it...



Just my $0.02 --- spend it however you like.

[kro]

Great advice!! Thanks

[Norme]

Hi Ken, Assuming all the gun's parts have matching numbers and the stock has a crown/gothic letter inspection mark (see photo), the 1917 Artillery with matching numbered mag and stock, cleaning rod and stock boot would be worth about $5,000.00. The fake leather has little value.
Regards, Norm

[wlyon]

Have looked at this holster for the last 30 minutes. Would like to see the inside where the closing strap is sewn on to see if another one was there before. The manufacturer stamp looks good. I realize these can and are faked but this one has a real look to me. Parts and pieces look ok. Parts also look reproduced. So ,even though John puts me in the league with Jerry Burney ( which I am a long ways from) Thank you John wish it were so. My guess it is an original holster with mending and replacement done to it. Seems strange that someone would make a repro or fake this well and yet sew the closing strap in that manner and with stitching around the edges? I have only been wrong twice today so maybe three? It is difficult to judge items unless you have them in hand. Would like to see photos of the back. What say Jerry ?

[lugerholsterrepair]

Bill is spot on..It's a tough call on the holster without seeing the back for starters. The inside of the top is a dark color which is odd for an original. The front closure strap sewn along the edges may have been a replacement of an original. The attaching leather on the stock looks good..Rawhide lined boot.

Funny no one has yet mentioned the 744 in place of a Crown S on the stock wood! I find that very odd. Wood looks to be European walnut though. Stock iron numbers look good.

[kro]

I took some pics of the inside of the holster where the strap is sewn. It does look like the strap was repaired with black thread. I pull the strap down and took a picture and you can see that there were holes where it had previously been sewn. In the inside pic you can see the black thread where it was left untrimmed.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Erik, I gotta say..your crazy good with that camera! That is a scene I see a lot of! It's original stitching...

[kro]

Thanks. What do you think? Was the strap repaired? Could the holster be original? Thanks for all your help.