Discretionary Blueing

cirelaw · 03-05-2014, 11:50 AM

In examining this early luger it occured to me how they can blue some parts and leave original others ~ For example the insides remain original yet the outer rails seem blued but how can it be if they are one piece? Are there any videos showing the entire process? ~~Eric

Bill_in_VA · 03-05-2014, 12:10 PM

My understanding of the rust bluing process used on the P.08 is that the chemical used to oxidize the steel was brushed on/applied to the surface; that is, the entire piece was not dipped into the chemical solution. The surfaces that did not receive the oxidizer did not turn blue. Once the rust developed it was carded off and then another round of application, rust, and carding occurred, with each successive round creating a deeper, darker shade.

cirelaw · 03-05-2014, 12:14 PM

Tks, It looks too labor intensive but appears the most proboble!

cirelaw · 03-05-2014, 01:30 PM

The answers are right here! http://www.lugerforum.com/FAQ.html A must read for all~~ Thanks to Ted!!

Maestro · 03-08-2014, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

The answers are right here! http://www.lugerforum.com/FAQ.html A must read for all~~ Thanks to Ted!!

Quote:

Q: What is the difference between hot Salt (dip) bluing and rust bluing?
A: The differences can be seen in the interior (in the white or blued) and is a by product of the nature of
the different bluing methodologies. In rust bluing, the bluing solution is painted on the surface to be blued,
and the part is then hung in a steam cabinet. The area of the piece painted with the bluing solution literally rusts.
When removed from the steam cabinet, the painted area is bright red with rust. This area is then carded
to remove the red rust, leaving a blued finish. If a deeper blue is desired, the entire process is repeated.
Since only the area one wishes to be blued is painted with the bluing solution, only that area ends up blued.

(Photos courtesy Ted Green)

In hot salt (sometimes called "dip") bluing, the entire part is dipped into a tank containing the bluing solution.
It is left to soak for a specific period of time, removed, the bluing solution still on the piece is neutralized,
and the part is oiled to stop the bluing process. Rust blue is a more durable finish, but a labor intensive finish.
Salt blue is less durable, but also less labor intensive. Anyway, that's why the inside surfaces of a rust blued
piece are in the white and the inside surfaces of a salt blued piece are blued. This is also one definitive way
to tell if an Imperial Luger has been reblued. If the inside of the frame is blued, it's a refinish. I hope this
helps!

Kyrie

alvin · 03-11-2014, 07:46 AM

Although not soaked, rust blue like Luger must contain a step to clean up the interior after bluing. This was mass produced, made in industrial way -- from what I saw on original Wartime C96 samples, the oxidation liquid must be sprayed onto the surface. During wartime, they did not blue inside (unlike earlier ones), they did not clean up the interior after bluing, and left a unique interior "blow-like" bluing pattern inside the frame. For Luger, I would assume they applied similar machinery (probably a sprayer like device) doing that like Mauser, but they clean up the interior afterwards.

Ron Wood · 03-11-2014, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

...For Luger, I would assume they applied similar machinery (probably a sprayer like device) doing that like Mauser, but they clean up the interior afterwards.

Nope, the solution was swabbed on. Can't pull it up immediately but I am pretty sure that original documentation exists that describes the process.

alvin · 03-12-2014, 07:32 AM

Thanks Ron! It's great to know.

I thought it over. Could the document describe the principle of how to do this, not the exact engineering implementation... say, initially, it's applied by swabbing the oxidation agent on the surface, originated from small scale gunsmith work, pure manual process, time consuming. This process could be improved to fit industrial production... but how do I know, no document, so I don't have any proof. The only hint is the later Mauser interior... if one maker implemented a quicker way, would it propagate to other makers... propagation would take time, say, DWM stayed on swabbing due to the high demand pressure from WWI was not long, so the propagation did not happen.

===

One more thought:
This was obvious finish quality gap between guns made in 1900 era and 1920 era. Both were made in peace time, both didn't have large volume. Why did the quality drop in 1920s?

JTD · 03-12-2014, 08:36 AM

Alvin, I have to disagree. Many of the "new" manufacture commercial DWM of the post war era were very well fit/finished. This was an era where craftsmanship was still an important part of manufacturing firearms. Reworks may have suffered a bit though. John

alvin · 03-13-2014, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTD

Alvin, I have to disagree. Many of the "new" manufacture commercial DWM of the post war era were very well fit/finished. This was an era where craftsmanship was still an important part of manufacturing firearms. Reworks may have suffered a bit though. John

John, I definitely agree that post WWI DWMs were very well made. But the finish of 1920s was not on the same level of 1900s. As you mentioned, 1920s was an era craftsmanship still being important. One natural question, why did finish quality drop//. That observation is not limited to DWM, Mauser was same. Post WWI Bolos were well made, much better finished than wartime, "Red 9", but in average, they are not at the same finish level of those made in 1900s. Supposedly, they were made by same group of people. What happened? Attitude on life changed, culture changed, market changed, or process changed? Something changed....

SIGP2101 · 04-10-2014, 04:04 PM

Yet it doesn't explain blueing process but we know for the fact that she was wearing apron during slide assembly but no safety glasses.

As for the inner white question, could it be that the final machining was done after the bluing procedure since upper and lower had to be hand married and struck with serial?

Sergio Natali · 04-11-2014, 04:05 AM

Alvin,

QUOTE:
... the finish of 1920s was not on the same level of 1900s. As you mentioned, 1920s was an era craftsmanship still being important. One natural question, why did finish quality drop//. That observation is not limited to DWM, Mauser was same. Post WWI Bolos were well made, much better finished than wartime, "Red 9", but in average, they are not at the same finish level of those made in 1900s. Supposedly, they were made by same group of people. What happened? Attitude on life changed, culture changed, market changed, or process changed? Something changed....
UNQUOTE

Many Mod 1900 Lugers made by DWM for Switzerland can still be admired in their pristine conditions, then they were made in years of peace and for the Swiss Army.
Lugers made during the WWII are a different story I think, altough he Germans were extremely strict on standards, and the quality of fit on their "Black Widows" was still outstandingly good, undoubtedly times were a lot different from 1900, so more than culture or attitude of life what made a difference I think was in the first place the historical period.

My 2 cents

danielsand · 04-11-2014, 05:06 PM

I'll offer my unsolicited opinion here.

During the wars, it's understandable that the finish went down. Factories were under big pressure from the government to deliver the maximmum production in limited time. Demand was very high. After the war, the modern, capitalist mindset came in. Corporate bigwigs realized that they can put more units out, and sell them for the same profit, even if they shorten the process, and produce 'less perfect" merchandise. This change was not limited to firearms. ALL goods that were delivered to the market, started to be manufactured with as much "corner cutting" as possible, and still retain the customer base.

So we are left with what we have today. "Disposable goods". Merchandise that is built with time and care, costs accordingly, and MOST of the public is conditioned to buy the "new stuff" all the time. That's when China stepped in, and started to produce EVERYTHING disposable, and dirt cheap. Western manufacturers had to adapt, produce cheaper goods, and the quality in almost everything, is not there any more.

Just MY unsolicited opinion.

03-05-2014, 11:50 AM	#1
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Discretionary Blueing In examining this early luger it occured to me how they can blue some parts and leave original others ~ For example the insides remain original yet the outer rails seem blued but how can it be if they are one piece? Are there any videos showing the entire process? ~~Eric Attached Thumbnails

04-10-2014, 04:04 PM	#11
SIGP2101 User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 256 Thanks: 74 Thanked 67 Times in 32 Posts	Yet it doesn't explain blueing process but we know for the fact that she was wearing apron during slide assembly but no safety glasses. As for the inner white question, could it be that the final machining was done after the bluing procedure since upper and lower had to be hand married and struck with serial? Attached Images

04-11-2014, 04:05 AM	#12
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Alvin, QUOTE: ... the finish of 1920s was not on the same level of 1900s. As you mentioned, 1920s was an era craftsmanship still being important. One natural question, why did finish quality drop//. That observation is not limited to DWM, Mauser was same. Post WWI Bolos were well made, much better finished than wartime, "Red 9", but in average, they are not at the same finish level of those made in 1900s. Supposedly, they were made by same group of people. What happened? Attitude on life changed, culture changed, market changed, or process changed? Something changed.... UNQUOTE Many Mod 1900 Lugers made by DWM for Switzerland can still be admired in their pristine conditions, then they were made in years of peace and for the Swiss Army. Lugers made during the WWII are a different story I think, altough he Germans were extremely strict on standards, and the quality of fit on their "Black Widows" was still outstandingly good, undoubtedly times were a lot different from 1900, so more than culture or attitude of life what made a difference I think was in the first place the historical period. My 2 cents __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

03-05-2014, 12:10 PM	#2
Bill_in_VA User Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 373 Thanks: 772 Thanked 554 Times in 198 Posts	My understanding of the rust bluing process used on the P.08 is that the chemical used to oxidize the steel was brushed on/applied to the surface; that is, the entire piece was not dipped into the chemical solution. The surfaces that did not receive the oxidizer did not turn blue. Once the rust developed it was carded off and then another round of application, rust, and carding occurred, with each successive round creating a deeper, darker shade.

03-05-2014, 12:14 PM	#3
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Tks, It looks too labor intensive but appears the most proboble!

03-05-2014, 01:30 PM	#4
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	The answers are right here! http://www.lugerforum.com/FAQ.html A must read for all~~ Thanks to Ted!!

03-11-2014, 07:46 AM	#6
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Although not soaked, rust blue like Luger must contain a step to clean up the interior after bluing. This was mass produced, made in industrial way -- from what I saw on original Wartime C96 samples, the oxidation liquid must be sprayed onto the surface. During wartime, they did not blue inside (unlike earlier ones), they did not clean up the interior after bluing, and left a unique interior "blow-like" bluing pattern inside the frame. For Luger, I would assume they applied similar machinery (probably a sprayer like device) doing that like Mauser, but they clean up the interior afterwards.

03-12-2014, 07:32 AM	#8
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Thanks Ron! It's great to know. I thought it over. Could the document describe the principle of how to do this, not the exact engineering implementation... say, initially, it's applied by swabbing the oxidation agent on the surface, originated from small scale gunsmith work, pure manual process, time consuming. This process could be improved to fit industrial production... but how do I know, no document, so I don't have any proof. The only hint is the later Mauser interior... if one maker implemented a quicker way, would it propagate to other makers... propagation would take time, say, DWM stayed on swabbing due to the high demand pressure from WWI was not long, so the propagation did not happen. === One more thought: This was obvious finish quality gap between guns made in 1900 era and 1920 era. Both were made in peace time, both didn't have large volume. Why did the quality drop in 1920s?

03-12-2014, 08:36 AM	#9
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 425 Thanks: 217 Thanked 408 Times in 149 Posts	Alvin, I have to disagree. Many of the "new" manufacture commercial DWM of the post war era were very well fit/finished. This was an era where craftsmanship was still an important part of manufacturing firearms. Reworks may have suffered a bit though. John

04-11-2014, 05:06 PM	#13
danielsand User Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: SoCal Posts: 137 Thanks: 52 Thanked 100 Times in 43 Posts	I'll offer my unsolicited opinion here. During the wars, it's understandable that the finish went down. Factories were under big pressure from the government to deliver the maximmum production in limited time. Demand was very high. After the war, the modern, capitalist mindset came in. Corporate bigwigs realized that they can put more units out, and sell them for the same profit, even if they shorten the process, and produce 'less perfect" merchandise. This change was not limited to firearms. ALL goods that were delivered to the market, started to be manufactured with as much "corner cutting" as possible, and still retain the customer base. So we are left with what we have today. "Disposable goods". Merchandise that is built with time and care, costs accordingly, and MOST of the public is conditioned to buy the "new stuff" all the time. That's when China stepped in, and started to produce EVERYTHING disposable, and dirt cheap. Western manufacturers had to adapt, produce cheaper goods, and the quality in almost everything, is not there any more. Just MY unsolicited opinion.