Long barrel Luger w/scope

schwob · 04-03-2002, 11:37 PM

Gun Broker auction item #3545305 shows a very pretty Luger with a 12" barrel and a 1x scope. Does anyone have any thoughts on the story behind this weapon. The seller offers very little information.

Johnny Peppers · 04-04-2002, 12:38 AM

Looks like an early post WWI commercial, possibly rebarreled by someone like Pacific Arms with a WWII Zf41 scope on it. The scopes were 1.5 power, and crude at best. The scope was originally fitted to the K98k rifle with a mount made into the rear sight and used more as a sharpshooters rifle.

mauro · 04-04-2002, 08:24 AM

Did you have the web site of Gun Broker.

I would like to have a look about this pistol.

Thanks a lot.

Mauro

Johnny Peppers · 04-04-2002, 09:56 AM

tom · 04-04-2002, 11:57 AM

The most important thing about this Luger is the 10 years at Club Fed you are setting your self up for by having it. It is a short rifle and thereby a Title II weapon that requires registration with BATF and a Tax Stamp. Betcha those little niceties have not been observed.

Hope this helps,

Tom

schwob · 04-04-2002, 12:15 PM

Thanx Tom, it is a very important piece of information that the seller never mentions. Another example of,"Buyer Beware".

John Sabato · 04-04-2002, 01:45 PM

but you would have to pay the $200.00 NFA tax BEFORE "making" a short-barreled-rifle (SBR) by owning and attaching the stock.

If you own only the pistol, there is no legal problem. Tell the seller to ship you ONLY the stock iron instead of the complete stock and you will be legal. The wood portion of the stock has fire damage anyway and will have to be replaced to look right again. You could do the legal NFA paperwork and tax while working on recreating and inletting the new stock to the stock iron.

Do it right, and you won't get in trouble with the ATF.

Do it wrong, and as Tom Armstrong said, ten years in prison and a VERY large fine...

regards,

John Sabato

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/TempSBR.jpg

Hugh · 04-04-2002, 04:17 PM

Wonder if any of the BATF boys monitor this site? They could be knocking on the present owners door as I type this!

tom · 04-04-2002, 04:52 PM

BATF Enforcement side has an Intelligence section, at least some of which actively monitors Gun sales internet sites; You can bet thay already know about this piece.

FWIW,

Tom

04-04-2002, 05:17 PM

How do we know that they aren't the ones putting it up for sale? They have been known to do set ups before (Ruby Ridge)

This would be a classic way to get access to a "private" collector. This looks like one that could have been confisticated. Over the years I've been offered great deals on such weapons, not worth Fed time in a pen. Man have I got some stories, but I'm sure a lot of us do.

Roadkill

tom · 04-04-2002, 06:00 PM

After several years as a Type 03 FFL with a SOT, I can assure you I don't want to be in the same zip code with an unregistered Title II weapon. No gun is worth the potential downside that such risk entails.

Tom

04-04-2002, 06:00 PM

Putting out for sale on the web, then getting non-knowledageble buyers to try and purchase it would be against federal law.

(There is a fine line there, but I don't think they'd do that, )

tom · 04-04-2002, 06:03 PM

To John Sabato,

Not to put too fine a point on it John, but the courts have held that it is the "iron" or attaching yoke when possessed with an ineligible pistol, that constituted the illegal act. The wood without the iron but with the pistol is legal. Hence so many C96 Mausers with "ironless" holster stocks.

FWIW,

Tom

tom · 04-04-2002, 06:05 PM

I am inclined to agree with you; BATF hasn't shown any inclination towards entrapment in the last several years. Certainly, since 9/11, they have had far bigger fish to fry.

Tom

BILL · 04-04-2002, 08:39 PM

Hold on..the BATF has to justify their jobs (just like any other gov't agency). As for the "bigger fish to fry"..try telling that to the cops next time you get pulled over for going ten miles over the speed limit. Just suggest it and see if it helps. Not all Federales are bad people but like any job they have their turds floating around. (and yes, they ARE reading this).

04-04-2002, 08:42 PM

04-05-2002, 12:18 AM

Would that be entrapment any more than the childporn stings? We've heard of the "candyman" network that's put lots of people away lately. They got a Madison City policeman nearby with that. The feds set up as a kid on the internet and pull the perverts in. (Good!)

Roadkill

Lonnie Zimmerman · 04-05-2002, 12:23 AM

I have one with a holographic sight, and it is a blast to shoot with a snail drum and shoulder stock. It wants to make me SMILE, and I do!!

Lonnie

John Sabato · 04-05-2002, 01:21 PM

I can see a violation by possession of both pieces of the stock, but not one or the other, as long as you owned an eligible pistol. I can't see how possession of just a stock iron and an ineligible Luger could constitute contructive posssession of a SBR... I would really like to read more about this. any pointers to cases would be appreciated.

I think that there are so many ironless shoulder stocks (luger, c96, and HP) because the nasty iron was removed and placed in safe custody before these fine weapons were removed from the purview of the NFA by ATF when then classified them as C&R... The parts were never rejoined because some potential buyers were intimidated by the ATF veiwpoint.

I don't advocate breaking the law, I just wish we could pin this down without getting a "reading" from ATF that would probably be considered worthless if someone had to go to court over an unintentional violation of this wierd regulation.

regards,

John Sabato

John Sabato · 04-05-2002, 01:23 PM

Luger Varieties are what make them so much fun...

-John

04-03-2002, 11:37 PM	#1
schwob RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Coast of Maine Posts: 273 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Long barrel Luger w/scope Gun Broker auction item #3545305 shows a very pretty Luger with a 12" barrel and a 1x scope. Does anyone have any thoughts on the story behind this weapon. The seller offers very little information.

04-04-2002, 12:38 AM	#2
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Long barrel Luger w/scope Looks like an early post WWI commercial, possibly rebarreled by someone like Pacific Arms with a WWII Zf41 scope on it. The scopes were 1.5 power, and crude at best. The scope was originally fitted to the K98k rifle with a mount made into the rear sight and used more as a sharpshooters rifle.

04-04-2002, 09:56 AM	#4
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	www.gunbroker.com (EOM)

04-04-2002, 11:57 AM	#5
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Long barrel Luger w/scope The most important thing about this Luger is the 10 years at Club Fed you are setting your self up for by having it. It is a short rifle and thereby a Title II weapon that requires registration with BATF and a Tax Stamp. Betcha those little niceties have not been observed. Hope this helps, Tom

04-04-2002, 12:15 PM	#6
schwob RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Coast of Maine Posts: 273 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Long barrel Luger w/scope Thanx Tom, it is a very important piece of information that the seller never mentions. Another example of,"Buyer Beware".

04-04-2002, 08:24 AM	#3
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Re: Long barrel Luger w/scope Did you have the web site of Gun Broker. I would like to have a look about this pistol. Thanks a lot. Mauro

04-04-2002, 01:45 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	This gun could be LEGALLY owned but you would have to pay the $200.00 NFA tax BEFORE "making" a short-barreled-rifle (SBR) by owning and attaching the stock. If you own only the pistol, there is no legal problem. Tell the seller to ship you ONLY the stock iron instead of the complete stock and you will be legal. The wood portion of the stock has fire damage anyway and will have to be replaced to look right again. You could do the legal NFA paperwork and tax while working on recreating and inletting the new stock to the stock iron. Do it right, and you won't get in trouble with the ATF. Do it wrong, and as Tom Armstrong said, ten years in prison and a VERY large fine... regards, John Sabato http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/TempSBR.jpg

04-04-2002, 04:17 PM	#8
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Re: Long barrel Luger w/scope Wonder if any of the BATF boys monitor this site? They could be knocking on the present owners door as I type this!

04-04-2002, 04:52 PM	#9
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Long barrel Luger w/scope BATF Enforcement side has an Intelligence section, at least some of which actively monitors Gun sales internet sites; You can bet thay already know about this piece. FWIW, Tom

04-04-2002, 05:17 PM	#10
R. Grady/Roadkill Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Long barrel Luger w/scope How do we know that they aren't the ones putting it up for sale? They have been known to do set ups before (Ruby Ridge) This would be a classic way to get access to a "private" collector. This looks like one that could have been confisticated. Over the years I've been offered great deals on such weapons, not worth Fed time in a pen. Man have I got some stories, but I'm sure a lot of us do. Roadkill

04-04-2002, 06:00 PM	#11
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Long barrel Luger w/scope After several years as a Type 03 FFL with a SOT, I can assure you I don't want to be in the same zip code with an unregistered Title II weapon. No gun is worth the potential downside that such risk entails. Tom

04-04-2002, 06:00 PM	#12
66mustang Guest Posts: n/a	No that should be entrapment. Putting out for sale on the web, then getting non-knowledageble buyers to try and purchase it would be against federal law. (There is a fine line there, but I don't think they'd do that, )

04-04-2002, 06:03 PM	#13
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: This gun could be LEGALLY owned To John Sabato, Not to put too fine a point on it John, but the courts have held that it is the "iron" or attaching yoke when possessed with an ineligible pistol, that constituted the illegal act. The wood without the iron but with the pistol is legal. Hence so many C96 Mausers with "ironless" holster stocks. FWIW, Tom

04-04-2002, 06:05 PM	#14
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: No that should be entrapment. I am inclined to agree with you; BATF hasn't shown any inclination towards entrapment in the last several years. Certainly, since 9/11, they have had far bigger fish to fry. Tom

04-04-2002, 08:39 PM	#15
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: No that should be entrapment. Hold on..the BATF has to justify their jobs (just like any other gov't agency). As for the "bigger fish to fry"..try telling that to the cops next time you get pulled over for going ten miles over the speed limit. Just suggest it and see if it helps. Not all Federales are bad people but like any job they have their turds floating around. (and yes, they ARE reading this).

04-04-2002, 08:42 PM	#16
bobregers Guest Posts: n/a	Long barrel Luger w/scope??Makes me laugh or barf? (EOM)

04-05-2002, 12:18 AM	#17
R. Grady/Roadkill Guest Posts: n/a	Re: No that should be entrapment. Would that be entrapment any more than the childporn stings? We've heard of the "candyman" network that's put lots of people away lately. They got a Madison City policeman nearby with that. The feds set up as a kid on the internet and pull the perverts in. (Good!) Roadkill

04-05-2002, 12:23 AM	#18
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Long barrel Luger w/scope??Makes me laugh or barf? I have one with a holographic sight, and it is a blast to shoot with a snail drum and shoulder stock. It wants to make me SMILE, and I do!! Lonnie

04-05-2002, 01:21 PM	#19
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Tom can you cite a court case that I could read. I can see a violation by possession of both pieces of the stock, but not one or the other, as long as you owned an eligible pistol. I can't see how possession of just a stock iron and an ineligible Luger could constitute contructive posssession of a SBR... I would really like to read more about this. any pointers to cases would be appreciated. I think that there are so many ironless shoulder stocks (luger, c96, and HP) because the nasty iron was removed and placed in safe custody before these fine weapons were removed from the purview of the NFA by ATF when then classified them as C&R... The parts were never rejoined because some potential buyers were intimidated by the ATF veiwpoint. I don't advocate breaking the law, I just wish we could pin this down without getting a "reading" from ATF that would probably be considered worthless if someone had to go to court over an unintentional violation of this wierd regulation. regards, John Sabato

04-05-2002, 01:23 PM	#20
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	To each his own Bob Regers and Lonnie Zimmerman Luger Varieties are what make them so much fun... -John