History of My "Balck Widow"...

Well, after a few days plowing through my luger books and e-mailing with Ralph Shattuck and a few others, I have been able to piece together some of the "history" of my newly acquired '41 byf "Black Widow" :


1. It appears that parts of my BW were originally an Erfurt luger or at least Erfurt parts.


2. Along side and in some cases beneath the more recently stamped German army proof marks, there were other stampings that were much "older". These older stampings were old, not sharp or well detailed. Such proof markings on my BW are the same ones shown the the M. Reese book, Luger Tips (revised edtion) on page 55. There are a crown/V in circle, a crown/GP, and a NP marking on the barrel (with the german army test stamp of an eagle/swaztika) on top of these older Erfurst stampings. The crown/V in circle stamping also occurs on the top of each of the three toggle sections as well as on the rigth side of the frame, directly opposite the thumb safety. The "older" markings were old, not deep, having no sharp edges, hard to read; all consistent with the theory that these Erfurst parts were reworked (sanding/polished) by Masuer when my BW was made and finally blued. See my earlier Forum posting, my photos # 5 and # 6 for a look at some of these marks...


3. Then my BW has the "Not English Make" stamping on the right side frame rail (also shown on page 55 of the Reese book). In addition, there are some extra British proof house stampings. This seems to confirm that my BW made its way to England during or after WWII.


As first, I was very nervous not knowing why my BW could have older markings from the Weimar era. I also did not know about the English proof marks, so needless to say I did not sleep easily for a few days.


No one here on the Forum told me that the detective work to get to know something about your luger is almost, if not more fun, than actually finding and buying a luger...

Great Pete, very interesting doing the detective part! I am excited about mine coming from Ralph, as soon as my C&R gets in!


Hopefully soon, but everyone keeps saying it takes 50 -60 days, and it was the Wednesday after WOL! So....


ed

[Roadkill]

Is this a new version? Haven't heard of this type before. Don' you just hare speling mistakes?


Reodkill

[John D.]

i just got my 41 byf black widow from ralph also. i love it but the numbers on the barrel and frame are different from the breech block and toggle assembly. yet it was described as "matched". am i missing something here?

[John D.]

Hi Tom...


Here is what "matched" is....


On the front of the frame, let's say your pistol is numbered "1234" (and a letter suffix). Then, on the underside of the barrel, you should also see "1234". On the small parts (toggle, sideplate, etc.) you should see two digets representing the last two digits of the serial number, or in this example "34". This would be a matched BlackWidow...


Hope this helps!

I think what Tom is talking about is the STYLE of the lettering? If so, they can be different depending on the size of the stamp die used...In most cases the frame number is slightly different in style to the others...at least on Mausers.


I'm am very confused on the Black Widow post above. I understand about the British Proofs, but the contention of a re-worked Erfurt marked as a factory new byf-41 totally loses me. Does this pistol have shadows of Erfurt proofs on the right receiver under and around the E655's and firing proof? I personally find it very hard to accept that Mauser would be allowed to re-work an old weapon and re-mark it as a NEW contract gun...someone please help me understand this. Thanks BCC

Hello BCC ,


The very old Erfurt stampings are all alike and equally old and appear on the following locations :


1. Right side of barrel. The germany army test proof is adjacent to this older stamping and actually has its left wing on top of the older Erfurt stamping.


2. The right side of the frame, in the location where a thumb safety would be if the luger has an ambidexterious safety...


3. On top of each of the three sections of the toggle link assembly.


The photos # 5 and # 6 I posted a couple of days ago show some of these older Erfurt markings, along side the byf markings and proofs.


I have been adviced by several folks I would consider knowlegable that Mauser did dig into parts bins during the last couple of years 1941 1942 to keep up with the war time pressures of filling military orders...


The gun also has several British proof house stampings from the Birmingham proof house. These stamps seem the "newest" compared to the Mauser and earlier Erfurt stampings; which seems to be supported by the chronology of the luger going to England at the end of WWII before arriving in the USA, eventually.

[Orv Reichert]

do the small parts have the last two numbers of the Frame-Barrel-Slide serial numbers? If not, then it is not matching and should be returned for a refund.


Orv Reichert

Pete, I'm very interested in learning more about your Luger. I can tell you that in my experience, Erfurt never proofed Lugers in the right frame ear area. The only proof I've ever seen in this area is the British "crown over Gp" mark. At least I think the letters are 'Gp". The other proofs you note may indeed be Erfurt. It is fairly easy to reconize Erfurt machining techniques, esp. on the frame and toggle.

Interesting how three topics are running in the same thread (my BW and its markings, the time for C&R's to be issued, and Tom Collin's question about his BW...) Back to my BW markings :


BCC;


1. If you go to my previous post where I posted 6 photos of my BW, take a look at photo # 6. On the barrel closest to frame is the mark in question. I would describe it as a "crown with a roman numberal below that is inclosed in a circle".


2. I went through my 8 lugers books and could only find one photo of this mark. It is in the Michael Reese book (Luger Tips, revised) on page 55. The mark in question is shown on the lower, left-hand photo on page 55 of the Reese book.


3. I made the assumption this Mark on page 55 of the Reese book and on my luger was an "Erfurt" mark because the photo is presented along text on the page were Reese is discussing Erfurt lugers. My assumption that the markings (5 total on my BW) are Erfurt could be wrong on my part.


4. The only thing I know is that the 5 markings all over my BW are identical to the mark Reese is showing on his page 55. And I am pretty sure these 5 marks are the "oldest" marks on the BW...


5. Suporting the argument that these marks are not Erfurt is the fact that one of these marks is on the right side of my frame opposite the thumb safety location. Then if you look at the other photos I have posted on the Forum of my BW, it clearly shows a Mauser frame with the rear bump feature behind the toggle assembly. Logic would dictate that a Mauser frame with a rear bump could not have historical Erfurt markings on that frame...


6. Assuming these Marks on my BW are not Erfurt, I am still challenged to find out what these marks are...so my little BW mystery continues...


Finally, for those of you who might be wondering why I just do not return this BW luger to the seller :


I love this luger !!! When I took it out of the box, I immediatley knew this BW was a bit different with its non-typical markings.


I made the decision that this luger is a "test" for me to find out all I can about where it has been. I would never consider returning this BW; regardless of the answers I eventually will discover.


It may take me some time to get to the bottom of these markings and their history. I will remian optimistic that the BW's markings in quesiton are authentic and will turn up with an historically correct explanation. If I discover the BW has some markings that do not belong, so be it. I am an adult and made an adult decision about my purchase.


The price of the BW is worth this challenge and what I can learn about my luger, myself, and other luger enthusiasts in the process.

Pete, I like your attitude! I will digest your points and directions a bit later when I have more time and a better monitor (this evening). I wish that you had access to "World of Lugers" Proof Marks by Costanzo. He depicts excellent line drawing reproductions of all of these marks we are discussing. I think that I can offer some wothwile imput once I can re-examine the points you have made. I, like you, appreciate Lugers that are somewhat off the beaten path.

Hello BCC,


Yes, I woud appreciate you looking in your Sam Costanza book later this evening.


I would love to add this book to my library but find the used pricing of $ 280-350 a bit high. But will probably "bite the bullet" one day, since this book is out-of-print and will not get any cheaper.


If my BW photo # 6 does not provide enough detail for your use, let me know and I can try to take a better photo and post on the Forum...if you have the M. Reese book (Luger Tips, revised), he has a better photo of this mark on page 55.


If these marks on my BW turn out to be proof marks from a British proof house (maybe the Birminghton house), I assumed they are "old" because they looked old. But maybe the proof mark stamp used was just worn out and gives that old impression...

Pete, it sounds like you have some work cut out for you. I have been looking at BW's for some time and never ran across a BW with your markings. I would tend to believe that all the old parts would have been used up on re works rather than on new guns and those parts would also have been exhausted first! I hope you did not pay much and if you got it for a deal and your happy that's great. I just hate seeing people being taken because of so many irregulararities in Lugers. Anyone can take an unusal part and make a gun look special when so much has yet to be documented. Trust your instincts and always ask lots of questions. You can never be too safe. Like you said, the search is like a challanging hunt.

Keep the faith.

MC

Pete, sorry for the delay. I did spend some time checking my copy of Luger Proof Marks and found a couple of the circle style proofs that you describe, identified as British proofs from B'ham and Vickers.. Also I would recommend that you look at the British proofs depicted in the Lugers at Random pages shown on the "Lugers Link that Tracey provided about 6 links down from your reminder post to me on the 21st. This link shows details of the British Crown over VP proofs and others (about 5 pages into the proof section). I think you must ID every proof on the pistol to really determine the sceniro of the history. While you are at this site, see if any of the proofs are like the Erfurt prrofs it shows.

Let me add, that this site has basically the same line drawings as the Luger Link provided by Tracey so it may or may not be worth your trouble. Point is that WOL Proof Marks is much more prolific than Lugers at Random in this regard and shows many more of the British proofs encountered. I can add that on my British proofed Luger (I no longer have it) that many of the British proofs were lightly stamped and faint. You should be viewing these under a 6X glass at least in order to define them. My sources (text) tell me that British Proofs are found on the toggle links, right frame ear and rail areas as well as the barrel.

Hello BCC,


Thanks for the additional info. on British proof house stampings.


I have received very similar info. from other Forum members as well.


The proof house stamp must have really been worn out. None of the edges are sharp and it wasn't hit very hard because the stamps are not very deep.


I am trying to chase down a copy of Sam Cotanzo's WOL Proof Marks book, boy that is one expensive book at $ 300-350.00; used...