What's the verdict on dry firing? Snap-caps?

Wernher von Browning · 09-20-2015, 08:17 PM

Hi, all.

New Swiss Luger owner here. 06/29, made in 1939, all matching. I intend to use it in competition. Which means I should practice with it.

I did try the search function but didn't find anything...

I hear a lot about never dry-firing a Luger.

I would like to practice dry-firing for competition ("Go buy a cheap .22 to practice...")

I made my own "Snap-Cap" by turning off the rim of a fired case on the lathe, making a nylon insert for the primer pocket and turning that flush with the head, and a dummy nylon bullet. The idea being to not extract that but just re-**** the pistol and dry-fire again.

The nylon shows a distinct dimple from the striker; I don't know if it performs much of a cushioning function, if that's what's called for.

I have a friend in Europe sending me some Italian-made Snap-Caps with a spring-loaded brass plunger where the primer would be.

I see that the Swiss manual for these does tell troops to check for correct re-assembly by dry firing, but one friend pointed out "They didn't have to worry about spare parts supply, or matching numbers."

So, what's the word -- OK to dry fire? Home-made Snap-Caps adequate? Commercial Snap-Caps OK?

Thanks in advance.

(I'll also copy this to the "new owners" subforum).

Edward Tinker · 09-20-2015, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wernher von Browning

...

(I'll also copy this to the "new owners" subforum).

I deleted the other posting - no reason to double post on the same forum

Also made it where you will get notified if someone posts.

A lot worse to dry-fire a Nambu IMO. A luger, its tough on it - I would think that snap caps help a lot - you could also buy extra firing pins?

I'll let folks who know better to answer if dry-firing is tough on other parts

I read, years ago, that folks in Rhodesia did not have ammo for competition, so they dry-fired and were able to improve their scores. I know firing stance and practice makes a huge difference.....

Ed

Wernher von Browning · 09-20-2015, 08:56 PM

Thanks.

Indeed dry-firing is one of the best, cheapest ways to improve scores. Some experienced rifle shooters tell me they figure on dry firing 100 times for every live round.

If the Luger is not going to be up to that, I'll have to find some other way to practice. The thing is, you want to practice with the sights and trigger you'll be using for the real thing.

A gunsmith in Switzerland tells me that he can't prove it, but he thinks Snap-Caps break Luger extractors. He's had to replace a few in guns that were used that way.

I shoot in Swiss competition (in the USA). Just got back from their five-yearly matches over there, where I did very well with my K31 rifle. For 2020 I want to be up to speed with pistol as well. My choices are Luger in 7.65 Parabellum or SIG P210 in 7.65 or 9mm (and the usual .22LR space guns). The Luger appealed to me more, and was half the price from Simpson's. The SIG undoubtedly has better sights (adjustable).

wlyon · 09-20-2015, 09:51 PM

For what it is worth. I make my own snap caps. Take a fired case, resize and pop the primer out, load the case with the appropriate bullet. With a leather punch tool cut out a round of leather , the size of the primer pocket. Glue this plug in the primer pocket. The plug should be at or slightly below the case face. Dry fire away. Has worked for me for 50 years. When the leather plug begins to look worn dig it out and replace. Bill

Wernher von Browning · 09-20-2015, 09:53 PM

I like the leather plug idea.

Will try that ... right now. I have the wheel-type punch and the brass.

The nylon takes a permanent set from the pin. The leather should be a bit more resilient.

The other alternative was to buy some two-component hard urethane rubber but I like your simple solution.

Wernher von Browning · 09-20-2015, 10:02 PM

Did it. Works. Going to dig in junkbox for thick hard rubber and try that too.

mrerick · 09-20-2015, 10:11 PM

Peter, welcome to the forum. As you've already seen, you'll find quite a bit of depth and expertise here.

Bill, excellent solution! I am going to nose around and see if there are any other materials with similar properties for insertion into the primer pocket.

Marc

Wernher von Browning · 09-20-2015, 10:15 PM

Rubber doesn't work -- at least not the way I am cutting it. Distorts too much with the punch, you get something that looks like two mushrooms joined stem-to-stem. Found thicker leather, works fine.

Wernher von Browning · 09-20-2015, 10:22 PM

If you have a lathe, you can try nylon but be aware that it will take a permanent impression from the pin so I don't know if that will still provide a beneficial effect.

I'm going to see if the local industrial supply place has Devcon urethane rubber in a hard variety. That can be mixed up in small amounts, smeared in the pocket, and allowed to cure. This stuff is used to reproduce (in appropriate molds) obsolete automotive chassis bushings, for example.

I see Devcon has a Flexane product with a hardness of Shore 97 (A). That's about like auto chassis bushings.

Still looking for harder, in smaller, cheaper packaging.

(Edit) Where to get nylon stock -- hardware store, those white plastic nuts and bolts.

Sergio Natali · 09-21-2015, 06:25 AM

Peter

In my opinon dry firing is good practice unless you exaggerate with it.
Out of principle I never dry fire any firearm without a good snap cap, as the area on the breach face around the striker hole where the primer rests against the breach face is what might break out.
The constant slamming of the striker on that unsupported part of the breach face is what causes a break, and hundreds of dry fires will do it.
My 2 cents

Sergio

John Sabato · 09-21-2015, 09:19 AM

Dry firing is hard on the firing pin, AND the breechblock... DAMHIK!

DRYfiring is highly NOT recommended without snapcaps.

When I was making my own snap caps, I used pieces cut out of a large handheld pencil eraser with a leather punch the right size. They last a good long time, and are easy to replace. They are gentle on firing pin impact, and on the breechblock where the firing pin shoulders would take the brunt of the impact.

I don't believe the story about damaging extractors. They take a heck of a wallop with each cartridge chambered, fired and extracted. A snap cap would be much gentler on the extractor.

sheepherder · 09-21-2015, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

[snap caps] - I used pieces cut out of a large handheld pencil eraser with a leather punch the right size. They last a good long time, and are easy to replace. They are gentle on firing pin impact, and on the breechblock where the firing pin shoulders would take the brunt of the impact.

+ 1

You can carve it to approximate size of a cartridge too.

Wernher von Browning · 10-26-2015, 10:28 PM

Update.

I got a half dozen .30 Luger snap-caps through a friend in Europe. Split them with another member of our club.

So now I have my own nylon dummy cartridge, the leather-filled primer pocket as recommended here, and the "professional" snap-caps, made in Italy.

Sergio Natali · 10-27-2015, 05:29 AM

Glad you found here your snap caps, in fact I've always used snap caps on ALL my guns, 1911s and GLOCKs included, even for an occasional dry firing it's wiser to have one of them in the chamber.

Dwight Gruber · 10-27-2015, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wernher von Browning

A gunsmith in Switzerland tells me that he can't prove it, but he thinks Snap-Caps break Luger extractors. He's had to replace a few in guns that were used that way.

Single-shot loading any cartridge into a Luger's chamber--snap cap or live round--and then closing the breech, can be damaging to the extractor.

The extractor is not designed to slip over the cartridge rim. Under normal operation, the round stripped from the magazine slides up the breech face and the rim hooks under the extractor. Slamming the extractor hook face into the rear of the cartridge can, indeed, break it.

Best practice is to chamber your snap cap from a magazine. This can be a problem if you are using a spent case with a "snubber" primer replacement and no bullet; you could probably manually place the case into the breech face and close the action before it falls out.

Of course, retracting the action far enough to **** the striker does not fully extract the case, so it is not necessary to insert it over and over.

--Dwight

Sonofeugene · 10-29-2015, 03:53 PM

Any snap cap that becomes permanently deformed by the firing pin will then fail to do it's job. Seems to me that a spring loaded snap cap with the striking surface being something that will not become permanently deformed while at the same time providing as soft a surface as possible would be the way to go as long as it has the correct spring backing it up.

I'm of the opinion that most guns can be dry fired without causing any damage. The only time dry firing becomes a problem is when the fit of the firing pin in the breach lock is such that contact between the two occurs too close to the pin itself. You can check your gun's contact area by disassembling it, thoroughly cleaning both the breach lock and the firing pin, and then brushing on a very thin coating of Prussian Blue on the front of the pin. Then load the pin in to the breach lock and press it in firmly with your finger. Then remove it and look for witness marks to see where the pin is contacting the breach lock. If the contact area is sufficiently far enough away from the small pin, you're good to go.

09-20-2015, 08:17 PM	#1
Wernher von Browning User Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 10 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What's the verdict on dry firing? Snap-caps? Hi, all. New Swiss Luger owner here. 06/29, made in 1939, all matching. I intend to use it in competition. Which means I should practice with it. I did try the search function but didn't find anything... I hear a lot about never dry-firing a Luger. I would like to practice dry-firing for competition ("Go buy a cheap .22 to practice...") I made my own "Snap-Cap" by turning off the rim of a fired case on the lathe, making a nylon insert for the primer pocket and turning that flush with the head, and a dummy nylon bullet. The idea being to not extract that but just re-**** the pistol and dry-fire again. The nylon shows a distinct dimple from the striker; I don't know if it performs much of a cushioning function, if that's what's called for. I have a friend in Europe sending me some Italian-made Snap-Caps with a spring-loaded brass plunger where the primer would be. I see that the Swiss manual for these does tell troops to check for correct re-assembly by dry firing, but one friend pointed out "They didn't have to worry about spare parts supply, or matching numbers." So, what's the word -- OK to dry fire? Home-made Snap-Caps adequate? Commercial Snap-Caps OK? Thanks in advance. (I'll also copy this to the "new owners" subforum).

09-20-2015, 09:51 PM	#4
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,637 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,561 Times in 956 Posts	For what it is worth. I make my own snap caps. Take a fired case, resize and pop the primer out, load the case with the appropriate bullet. With a leather punch tool cut out a round of leather , the size of the primer pocket. Glue this plug in the primer pocket. The plug should be at or slightly below the case face. Dry fire away. Has worked for me for 50 years. When the leather plug begins to look worn dig it out and replace. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

09-20-2015, 10:11 PM	#7
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Peter, welcome to the forum. As you've already seen, you'll find quite a bit of depth and expertise here. Bill, excellent solution! I am going to nose around and see if there are any other materials with similar properties for insertion into the primer pocket. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

09-21-2015, 06:25 AM	#10
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Peter In my opinon dry firing is good practice unless you exaggerate with it. Out of principle I never dry fire any firearm without a good snap cap, as the area on the breach face around the striker hole where the primer rests against the breach face is what might break out. The constant slamming of the striker on that unsupported part of the breach face is what causes a break, and hundreds of dry fires will do it. My 2 cents Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

09-21-2015, 09:19 AM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Dry firing is hard on the firing pin, AND the breechblock... DAMHIK! DRYfiring is highly NOT recommended without snapcaps. When I was making my own snap caps, I used pieces cut out of a large handheld pencil eraser with a leather punch the right size. They last a good long time, and are easy to replace. They are gentle on firing pin impact, and on the breechblock where the firing pin shoulders would take the brunt of the impact. I don't believe the story about damaging extractors. They take a heck of a wallop with each cartridge chambered, fired and extracted. A snap cap would be much gentler on the extractor. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-20-2015, 08:56 PM	#3
Wernher von Browning User Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 10 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks. Indeed dry-firing is one of the best, cheapest ways to improve scores. Some experienced rifle shooters tell me they figure on dry firing 100 times for every live round. If the Luger is not going to be up to that, I'll have to find some other way to practice. The thing is, you want to practice with the sights and trigger you'll be using for the real thing. A gunsmith in Switzerland tells me that he can't prove it, but he thinks Snap-Caps break Luger extractors. He's had to replace a few in guns that were used that way. I shoot in Swiss competition (in the USA). Just got back from their five-yearly matches over there, where I did very well with my K31 rifle. For 2020 I want to be up to speed with pistol as well. My choices are Luger in 7.65 Parabellum or SIG P210 in 7.65 or 9mm (and the usual .22LR space guns). The Luger appealed to me more, and was half the price from Simpson's. The SIG undoubtedly has better sights (adjustable).

09-20-2015, 09:53 PM	#5
Wernher von Browning User Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 10 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I like the leather plug idea. Will try that ... right now. I have the wheel-type punch and the brass. The nylon takes a permanent set from the pin. The leather should be a bit more resilient. The other alternative was to buy some two-component hard urethane rubber but I like your simple solution.

09-20-2015, 10:02 PM	#6
Wernher von Browning User Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 10 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Did it. Works. Going to dig in junkbox for thick hard rubber and try that too.

09-20-2015, 10:15 PM	#8
Wernher von Browning User Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 10 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Rubber doesn't work -- at least not the way I am cutting it. Distorts too much with the punch, you get something that looks like two mushrooms joined stem-to-stem. Found thicker leather, works fine.

09-20-2015, 10:22 PM	#9
Wernher von Browning User Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 10 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	If you have a lathe, you can try nylon but be aware that it will take a permanent impression from the pin so I don't know if that will still provide a beneficial effect. I'm going to see if the local industrial supply place has Devcon urethane rubber in a hard variety. That can be mixed up in small amounts, smeared in the pocket, and allowed to cure. This stuff is used to reproduce (in appropriate molds) obsolete automotive chassis bushings, for example. I see Devcon has a Flexane product with a hardness of Shore 97 (A). That's about like auto chassis bushings. Still looking for harder, in smaller, cheaper packaging. (Edit) Where to get nylon stock -- hardware store, those white plastic nuts and bolts.

10-26-2015, 10:28 PM	#13
Wernher von Browning User Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 10 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Update. I got a half dozen .30 Luger snap-caps through a friend in Europe. Split them with another member of our club. So now I have my own nylon dummy cartridge, the leather-filled primer pocket as recommended here, and the "professional" snap-caps, made in Italy.

10-27-2015, 05:29 AM	#14
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Glad you found here your snap caps, in fact I've always used snap caps on ALL my guns, 1911s and GLOCKs included, even for an occasional dry firing it's wiser to have one of them in the chamber. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

10-29-2015, 03:53 PM	#16
Sonofeugene User Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 157 Thanks: 1 Thanked 118 Times in 64 Posts	Any snap cap that becomes permanently deformed by the firing pin will then fail to do it's job. Seems to me that a spring loaded snap cap with the striking surface being something that will not become permanently deformed while at the same time providing as soft a surface as possible would be the way to go as long as it has the correct spring backing it up. I'm of the opinion that most guns can be dry fired without causing any damage. The only time dry firing becomes a problem is when the fit of the firing pin in the breach lock is such that contact between the two occurs too close to the pin itself. You can check your gun's contact area by disassembling it, thoroughly cleaning both the breach lock and the firing pin, and then brushing on a very thin coating of Prussian Blue on the front of the pin. Then load the pin in to the breach lock and press it in firmly with your finger. Then remove it and look for witness marks to see where the pin is contacting the breach lock. If the contact area is sufficiently far enough away from the small pin, you're good to go.