Erma 22LR extractor

[Edward Tinker]

A friend of mine owns this 22 LR Erma and it needs an extractor? Is that hard to find?

it had some tape on it and I took it off in the later pictures.

And the biggest question is, are there different types of extractors for Erma's?

[sheepherder]

I found an illustration of what looks similar...Doesn't look too difficult to make...

But is the plunger and spring still in the breechblock??? The pic looks like it is...And I don't see anything to hold the extractor in place...Is there a hole for a retaining pin or something???

Also, Sturgess & Gortz show a purpose-barreled Luger with that conversion on a similar barrel...

[ithacaartist]

Gents, I have some thoughts on this. This extractor system is the same as on the KGP series toggle pistols by Erma--the ones that are mostly steel, made in the 70's and 80's. In the pic I will attach, you can see that there is an area on the rear of the extractor just above where the little rounded "tail" is on the bottom. That small step is where the end of the plunger pushes, forced by the spring. Retention of the extractor body also depends on this step/plunger/spring pressure. It isn't a very robust setup, like a pivot pin, so it's easy to see how the extractor would pop out during operation. If the entire extractor is missing, then there wouldn't be anything to hold the spring and plunger in place, as Rich suggests.

This is a part that is scarce as hen's teeth these days, even if it is a match for the one pictured, from a KGP-68A. If the dimensions match up, it might just work, and I have one for sale. If not, you'll have to make one, which, though perhaps troublesome, is not impossible.

[Edward Tinker]

will look closer and take pictures of this toggle tomorrow

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

will look closer and take pictures of this toggle tomorrow

Wasn't that the piece that popped out of your Erma conversion when I first fired it???

Ah, yes - post #4 -

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=33198

[Edward Tinker]

Might be will compare this one with mine

[DonVoigt]

Dave,
thanks for the picture.
Looks easy enough to make- even with a hack saw and file if need be.

I have another original .22 kit coming from Tom, I'll take the extractor out and post it when it arrives.

If there is a market for these, I may have my machinist friend make some.

Sounds like everyone should have a spare- or two, if one shoots these.

[ithacaartist]

I shoot from within a cardboard box with appropriate holes, until I have developed at least some confidence that the replacement extractor will stay in place! This practice has saved the day.

I have the opposite problem with the conversion kit I have--I cannot get the extractor out in order to clean. The breech block of the kit presents an opening in the front, from which the extractor's claw protrudes, and a vertical hole in the top. The blocks of the KGP pistols are open on top--a slot for the extractor body with a vertical hole at its rear. Both kits and KGP pistols house the spring and plunger in a horizontal hole that opens into the toggle pin hole, toward the rear of the block.

Theoretically, one would reach into the hole in the top of the block and press the plunger and spring back into their well/hole so they do not intrude into the vertical hole. The extractor can then rise so that its "tail" piece is clear of its well/hole, at which point the extractor body can be pulled out forward from its confines. I can get the plunger back, but the extractor body refuses to budge in this way. It does pivot up OK, to latch onto the round's rim.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

I shoot from within a cardboard box with appropriate holes...

Like a big refrigerator box? With two eyeholes and a muzzle slot?

I was thinking that since Ed's kit was mfg'd before high velocity/hyper velocity/sooper-dooper velocity .22 ammunition, it was the force of the breechblock/extractor slamming back that forced the extractor out. A stronger spring might help. Cleaning the crud out of the extractor cavity would help too.

Using only "target' .22LR ammunition would be a good idea as well. There's none available locally since the ban, which is why I tried whatever the LGS had left.

Maybe polishing the walls of the cavity would be beneficial too.

Dave, your attempt to remove the extractor sounds exactly like how I did it. IIRC, that plunger holds it down as well as in. No pin. The back has to kind of tilt up after the plunger is pushed back...

[Ron Wood]

David,
Just a thought. Looking at the shape of the extractor, once the plunger is retracted perhaps it is necessary to push the extractor slightly toward the rear in order to allow it to clear a small detent and then pivot up and out of the breech block?

On another note, the conversion in the original post has the rather scarce (I think?) adjustable rear sight. Other than the one I own I have not seen any other examples. Does anyone have a feel for how common or scarce they are?
Ron

[Edward Tinker]

Ron, my friend happened to point it out to me (adjustable sight) -

I have only owned this one - this is a close up of the toggle that a friend worked on, the other above is my friends that I need an extractor for - sounds like having one made is the best bet?

Rich, I imagine I have some standard velocity sitting around

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

On another note, the conversion in the original post has the rather scarce (I think?) adjustable rear sight. Other than the one I own I have not seen any other examples. Does anyone have a feel for how common or scarce they are?
Ron

"...special version of the Modell 30b..."

How did we ever live without the Internet???

[DonVoigt]

When I fired my kit, it would not function with std. velocity or "target" ammo.
I had to use normal "hi-speed" .22 lr; not stingers or hyper velocity, just "regular hi speed".

[Edward Tinker]

ok, so in the big picture - anyone have an extra extractor, or one that I could borrow and have a friend make me a copy or they could make a copy

Ed

[ithacaartist]

You're welcome to borrow one of mine, Ed. First, let's check to see if the dimensions rule mine out as an example or not. In reference the KGP-68A extractor pic posted, the distance between the back of the extractor claw and the front side of the little leg at the back measures 0.220-0.223, representing the distance from the front of the hole in top of the block to the front face of the round's rim, inclusive of however much of the block is in between.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Looks easy enough to make- even with a hack saw and file if need be.

IIRC, the area at the rear-bottom is drum-shaped; wider than the flat portion of the extractor. When you push it in the hole, it drops down when it's in position. That's when the stepped plunger holds it in.

Looks like a lot more work than 'easy'...But I assume you're making it. I've adopted Maynard G. Kreb's work ethic. "Work?!?!"...

Take pics & keep us posted!

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

IIRC, the area at the rear-bottom is drum-shaped; wider than the flat portion of the extractor. When you push it in the hole, it drops down when it's in position. That's when the stepped plunger holds it in.

Looks like a lot more work than 'easy'...But I assume you're making it. I've adopted Maynard G. Kreb's work ethic. "Work?!?!"...

Take pics & keep us posted!

Easy doesn't mean quick!

Work!
Doesn't bother me at all since I'm retired; I can lay right next to it and take a nap.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Easy doesn't mean quick!

It doesn't mean cheap either!

OK, I'm looking at the extractor blown up and lightened; it seems to be flat with the rear bottom area rounded vertically [2nd pic] rather than horizontally [first pic]. That makes sense.

[ithacaartist]

From top to bottom: KGP 68A, Se 08 Kit, KGP 69

As I feared, the extractor from the conversion kit is not a match with either of the others.

The closeup of Ed's breech block does, indeed show the plunger stepped to fit its notch over the top rear of the extractor body once all is in place. If the plunger is there, then the spring is still there behind it. What is curious is the mass that is visible in the back, bottom area within the extractor well. I'll bet it's the remnants of the rounded "tail" of the extractor, and that it was broken off the from the extractor body! The plunger and spring are removed by moving them straight forward. The broken chunk must rise a bit--the length of the tail--before it, too, moves forward and out.

The conversion kit with a round hole in the block's top is the best one for maintaining the parts in place. The version with a slotted, open top will allow the extractor body to rise out of position if there is not constant spring pressure on it from behind. This is the same situation presented by both KGP pistols, and has proven to fail in this regard, on occasion.

I'm having some of each made, so check the WTS section if you wish to pre-order any of these 3 extractors. I also have a raft of extractors that fit the earlier cast Zamak models, La-, Ep-, or Et-22.

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

David,
Just a thought. Looking at the shape of the extractor, once the plunger is retracted perhaps it is necessary to push the extractor slightly toward the rear in order to allow it to clear a small detent and then pivot up and out of the breech block?
Ron

Ron, when I finally succeeded in removing mine, it became clear that a bit of precision is needed when holding the plunger back in its well. This will allow the extractor body to rise straight up for the "tail" to clear its hole at the back end, and then straight forward and out of the block. It's a regular hole, no sign of a detente anywhere--though it probably would have been a good feature in the design. Whatever us used to hold the plunger back must not protrude down beyond the top step of the plunger, to avoid restricting the upward travel of the back end of the extractor body.