A navy with history! Imperial, Weimar, and Third Reich

DonVoigt · 05-14-2016, 11:29 AM

I received yesterday, this new to me, Navy luger. It came to the US via Canada, and according to the Canadian owner was brought back by a WWII Canadian vet. Like all stories, just for reference, really has not much to do with anything so believe it or not.

This pistol started out as at least three different Imperial Navy pistols: a 1906 first type, a 1906 2nd issue, and a 1916 dated 1914 type; all subject to validation by the experts here of course.

I believe the complete upper came from 1906 first issue number 747a, whose barrel was shortened to 4" and the front sight from the 1916 pistol added. At some point the original number 747, which is found on the barrel and the bottom of the receiver, was over stamped with a new number in larger font- 4150. One can see how the front sight was removed and then replaced in one of the pictures below.

The frame is numbered "10", which is a new number and not consistent with a 1906 second issue; but the frame has the grip safety provision and factory stamped "Gesichert" in the upper position of the 2nd issue. Perhaps a spare frame? or just that well scrubbed and numbered 10? I can see no signs of previous numbers nor of shortening.

Small parts like the take down lever, side plate, middle toggle, and Erfurt proofed rear toggle are numbered 10. The breech block and the trigger have no numbers or acceptance/proofing at all.

The various pieces met their first session with modification in about 1920, when they were assembled into a 4" piece compliant with the 1920 rules and marked with the 1920 property stamp. "1920" is hand stamped both on the chamber top and left front side rail.

The pistol then served the Weimar Navy for some years, and in approximately 1935/6 received the N over 1159 engraving on the rear strap. N/1159 is a marking of the resurgent Kreigsmarine and numbers in close sequence are found on G date Mausers with similar Navy numbers, thus the 1935 or '36 estimate of marking.

The grips were replaced at least once, maybe twice. The left grip is an unmarked replacement, as the original grip would be cut out for the grip safety which was removed. The right grip is a later replacement, from about 1941 as it has an e/135 inspection marking.

The magazine present is a scrubbed Mauser magazine from a later Navy pistol, dating to about 1937/8 with N 2318 stamped over a 145/m/se 63 original marking. N 2388 is found on a 1937 dated Mauser Navy.

References to these modified navies can be found in Still's Weimar and Early Nazi volume, the Mauser Parabellum, and Goertz and Sturgess three volume set. In fact a very similar 4" Navy with serial 21 is found in Sturgess p-381 Volume 1 green set.

So here we have pictures of an interesting Navy pistol with service to three "Germanies", Imperial, Weimar, Third Reich.

Comments, corrections, observations are welcome!

Additional pictures are in post #2.

PS- If anyone needs the N2318 magazine(blue body, al base); and has an N with a lower # to trade, I would be open to trade.
A N1159 or N91 would be ideal, but others lower than 2318 ok.

DonVoigt · 05-14-2016, 11:29 AM

More pictures of the 4" navy # 10.

In the first two pictures, one can see where the small pin was added to support the P 08 type safety arm when the conversion from the grip safety was made. The small circle where the pin was added can be seen faintly if you look hard for it!

You can see the original 747 centered over the a, with the over stamp of 4150 on the barrel, and the original 7 47 on the receiver bottom and lug as originally marked on the 1906 upper.

The Erfurt rear toggle with crown/B of a spare part, with the number 10 for this frame added.

I have no explanation why the barrel was not over stamped,again, with a "10"; or why perhaps the frame was not numbered as "4150" to match the over stamped barrel.

Another one I wish could tell its own "story".

cirelaw · 05-14-2016, 12:32 PM

I have a very simular artillery with the same history~ Congrads according Jan in his book, Imperial Lugers , Jans tables only a few!

Eugen · 05-14-2016, 09:58 PM

Wow, that is some story of the life of that luger.I am sure are pleased to add that to your collection.

Ben M. · 06-12-2016, 11:34 AM

how will member norm place this on his navy list?

kurusu · 06-12-2016, 12:40 PM

Fascinating! Sure wish they could talk.

alanint · 06-12-2016, 02:35 PM

What is stamped on the toggle? You show every angle but a straight down on the overall pistol.

DonVoigt · 06-12-2016, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

What is stamped on the toggle? You show every angle but a straight down on the overall pistol.

You have to have the secret decoder ring to see the
view!

Rear toggle is an Erfurt replacement part, numbered to the piece.

4 Scale · 07-04-2016, 03:59 PM

Really interesting piece and I appreciate the discussion of the history of the various parts. I enjoy seeing pistols like this. I understand and appreciate the attraction of all-matching but examples like this one vividly demonstrate how the Germans never had enough in terms of military equipment and so kept reworking pistols that could still function.

If one of the reasons we collect is to imagine where, when, how and by whom the item was used, an example like this is about as good as it gets.

Sergio Natali · 07-05-2016, 02:41 PM

Don

What can I say, congratulations, it's simply fashinating!
And of course thanks for sharing.

05-14-2016, 11:29 AM	#1
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	A navy with history! Imperial, Weimar, and Third Reich I received yesterday, this new to me, Navy luger. It came to the US via Canada, and according to the Canadian owner was brought back by a WWII Canadian vet. Like all stories, just for reference, really has not much to do with anything so believe it or not. This pistol started out as at least three different Imperial Navy pistols: a 1906 first type, a 1906 2nd issue, and a 1916 dated 1914 type; all subject to validation by the experts here of course. I believe the complete upper came from 1906 first issue number 747a, whose barrel was shortened to 4" and the front sight from the 1916 pistol added. At some point the original number 747, which is found on the barrel and the bottom of the receiver, was over stamped with a new number in larger font- 4150. One can see how the front sight was removed and then replaced in one of the pictures below. The frame is numbered "10", which is a new number and not consistent with a 1906 second issue; but the frame has the grip safety provision and factory stamped "Gesichert" in the upper position of the 2nd issue. Perhaps a spare frame? or just that well scrubbed and numbered 10? I can see no signs of previous numbers nor of shortening. Small parts like the take down lever, side plate, middle toggle, and Erfurt proofed rear toggle are numbered 10. The breech block and the trigger have no numbers or acceptance/proofing at all. The various pieces met their first session with modification in about 1920, when they were assembled into a 4" piece compliant with the 1920 rules and marked with the 1920 property stamp. "1920" is hand stamped both on the chamber top and left front side rail. The pistol then served the Weimar Navy for some years, and in approximately 1935/6 received the N over 1159 engraving on the rear strap. N/1159 is a marking of the resurgent Kreigsmarine and numbers in close sequence are found on G date Mausers with similar Navy numbers, thus the 1935 or '36 estimate of marking. The grips were replaced at least once, maybe twice. The left grip is an unmarked replacement, as the original grip would be cut out for the grip safety which was removed. The right grip is a later replacement, from about 1941 as it has an e/135 inspection marking. The magazine present is a scrubbed Mauser magazine from a later Navy pistol, dating to about 1937/8 with N 2318 stamped over a 145/m/se 63 original marking. N 2388 is found on a 1937 dated Mauser Navy. References to these modified navies can be found in Still's Weimar and Early Nazi volume, the Mauser Parabellum, and Goertz and Sturgess three volume set. In fact a very similar 4" Navy with serial 21 is found in Sturgess p-381 Volume 1 green set. So here we have pictures of an interesting Navy pistol with service to three "Germanies", Imperial, Weimar, Third Reich. Comments, corrections, observations are welcome! Additional pictures are in post #2. PS- If anyone needs the N2318 magazine(blue body, al base); and has an N with a lower # to trade, I would be open to trade. A N1159 or N91 would be ideal, but others lower than 2318 ok. Attached Thumbnails Attached Images __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

05-14-2016, 12:32 PM	#3
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Very Rare~ I have a very simular artillery with the same history~ Congrads according Jan in his book, Imperial Lugers , Jans tables only a few!

05-14-2016, 09:58 PM	#4
Eugen User Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Newburgh,IN Posts: 790 Thanks: 394 Thanked 631 Times in 334 Posts	Wow, that is some story of the life of that luger.I am sure are pleased to add that to your collection. __________________ “God created war so that Americans would learn geography.” ― Mark Twain

07-05-2016, 02:41 PM	#10
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Don What can I say, congratulations, it's simply fashinating! And of course thanks for sharing. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

06-12-2016, 11:34 AM	#5
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 488 Thanks: 90 Thanked 123 Times in 83 Posts	how will member norm place this on his navy list?

06-12-2016, 12:40 PM	#6
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 930 Times in 509 Posts	Fascinating! Sure wish they could talk.

06-12-2016, 02:35 PM	#7
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	What is stamped on the toggle? You show every angle but a straight down on the overall pistol.

07-04-2016, 03:59 PM	#9
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	Really interesting piece and I appreciate the discussion of the history of the various parts. I enjoy seeing pistols like this. I understand and appreciate the attraction of all-matching but examples like this one vividly demonstrate how the Germans never had enough in terms of military equipment and so kept reworking pistols that could still function. If one of the reasons we collect is to imagine where, when, how and by whom the item was used, an example like this is about as good as it gets.