Seeking Artillery

tpellenb · 08-17-2016, 11:50 PM

Hi All,

So I'm a long time admirer and relatively new P08 owner. Got the itch about a month ago when visiting a local shop. The guys there cater in fine firearms and happened to have a few decent examples. I was in love the second I saw mine in the flesh. Mauser 1936, S/42 all matching #'s (except mag) and 90-95% condition. Can't lie, I'm obsessed. They're sublimely constructed and ergonomically impeccable. Have determined I'll own at least a couple in my lifetime.

In fact I'm more than a little interested in buying another relatively soon. This brings me here. I'm very sure I'd like my next gun to be an Artillery. Bought Luger Tips and have been studying forums and other information. Feel I've got a pretty good handle on the basics of the artillery. Having said this I'm here soliciting advice. Obviously don't want to go broke but am wondering what I should expect for $2000-3000 range. Naturally I'd like matching parts on an original gun, with or without matching mag, and 90+% finish with sound mechanicals. I intend to shoot this gun but treat it like it'll never be shot.

My local shop is sitting on a number of these but cannot sell until they receive permission from the spouse of the departed owner. This has proven difficult. I've investigated the guns and they're mint. Shop staff are keeping me in mind but I doubt they'll be at my price point when released. No problems bringing another into the shop though.

Best regards,

Tim

wayne8661 · 08-18-2016, 12:13 AM

Where in Wilmington do you live Tim? That's where I lived before I moved to Kennett
Wayne

DavidJayUden · 08-18-2016, 12:43 AM

I'd think that $2k to $3k should get you a very nice matching original gun, although probably not a particularly rare one. The holster, stock, and accessories will push that price up pretty fast, however.
Just don't jump at the first one you see, but take time to study and watch the market. Watch the on line gun auctions, Simpson, Ltd, etc.
Welcome aboard!
dju

tpellenb · 08-18-2016, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne8661

Where in Wilmington do you live Tim? That's where I lived before I moved to Kennett
Wayne

Wayne - I lived in trolley square for several years and am now in midtown Brandywine. How about you? The shop I was referring to is Artemis Outfitters.

DJU - not sure I need anything exotic. Just a nice matching gun. Might ultimately build a rig out of it, but that's long term. I'm not normally one to rush into a thing, but lately I've found myself tempering the need for immediate gratitude. I'm familiar with Simpson. Have considered ordering a k-31 from them in the past.

Question, were artillery guns emmer numbered in the commercial fashion?

George Anderson · 08-18-2016, 10:26 AM

[QUOTE=tpellenb

Question, were artillery guns ever numbered in the commercial fashion?[/QUOTE]

No.

Karl · 08-18-2016, 10:42 AM

George,

I wish to disagree. Commercial artillery lugers were numbered in the commercial fashion. An example is for sale on Joe Salter's website.
https://www.joesalter.com/category/p...ger-by-DWM-9mm
KFS

George Anderson · 08-18-2016, 12:10 PM

Those "commrecial artilleries" are cobbled together from parts during the post war era.

tpellenb · 08-18-2016, 01:17 PM

But that would still count as an artillery correct? It's not some scam Frankengun built decades later, rather it was assembled relatively soon after the war by a commercial manufacturer and would have hidden #'s.

Karl · 08-18-2016, 02:23 PM

The post war commercial lugers may have employed surplus parts but they are more than frankenguns. Note that the receiver is marked "safe" and the extractor is marked "loaded" for the American market. Also note the commercial style marking and the lack of military proofs.
KFS

DonVoigt · 08-18-2016, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tpellenb

But that would still count as an artillery correct? It's not some scam Frankengun built decades later, rather it was assembled relatively soon after the war by a commercial manufacturer and would have hidden #'s.

Well,
they are some kind of "artillery"; but one could call them a "Frankengun", just made in the 1920's not in the 1970's.

Depends on your view point; they could have most any number of combinations of numbering or no numbers. JMHO.

tpellenb · 08-19-2016, 09:56 AM

A couple questions for everyone...

1.) What should make me suspicious? It's sometimes difficult to judge a gun through online auction photos, which I suppose is a red flag in of itself. Aside from mismatching blue or straw, the near perfection of blue, lack of detail, scrutiny of proofs, etc., what are some things I should look for or be on the lookout for?

2.) Similarly, If you had to describe a unique, rare, or valuable feature what would it be? I'm referring to anything which might subtly render an ordinary gun extraordinary.

Not a spring chicken, but not advanced either. Why the advice is appreciated.

Thanks guys,

Tim

alanint · 08-19-2016, 10:33 AM

Experience and handling many, many examples are the only true school for evaluating a firearm.

That being said, I look for sharp, well defined edges on all surfaces. Well fitting grips with no overlap, no shortness and no slop. As you mention, crisp and well defined markings. Proper overall wear and finish colors.

Short of visiting an extensive collection with someone who has profound knowledge of the subject, I would purchase as many books as you can afford.

Eugen · 08-19-2016, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

I would purchase as many books as you can afford.

I bought my first Luger in April 2016 for $1200. By June I bought about $700 in Luger reference books.

Tim, my advice (from a fellow Noobie) is to read and study the forum's FAQ first to get started. It's free.

DavidJayUden · 08-19-2016, 03:05 PM

Regarding your second question, certain models are rare, such as the 1914 Erfurt artilleries, etc, while other guns are deemed rare by just a marking or number. While I don't run away from Lugers with a rare marking, or a matching mag, etc, I never pay a premium for it either. The rationale being that those are the most likely boosted guns out there, and quite honestly I doubt that I could tell a boosted one from an original. But if I don't throw stupid money at it for that marking, who cares? Case in point the deaths' head markings. Interesting, but sssssoooooo controversial.
Overall experience will help you ID deficiencies. The number of years of experience directly correlates with the % of red flags detected, however we've probably all been disappointed at one time or another.
And internet or long distance sales have a higher incidence of disappointment than close-up, hands-on examination. At the very least demand a 3 day non-firing exam period, and share your concerns here.
dju

spacecoast · 08-19-2016, 03:44 PM

The gun advertised as a Commercial Artillery at Joe Salter - https://www.joesalter.com/category/p...ger-by-DWM-9mm - falls right in the middle of the 2,000 gun .30 cal Safe/Loaded range. Without a matching number on the barrel, I would have to agree with George and think that it was a standard .30 cal S/L gun with the barrel replaced later.

ithacaartist · 08-19-2016, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spacecoast

The gun advertised as a Commercial Artillery at Joe Salter - https://www.joesalter.com/category/p...ger-by-DWM-9mm - falls right in the middle of the 2,000 gun .30 cal Safe/Loaded range. Without a matching number on the barrel, I would have to agree with George and think that it was a standard .30 cal S/L gun with the barrel replaced later.

I'm having trouble seeing the little notch on the top, front of the receiver. It may or may not be there?

5 digit serial number on the frame, so made before that system was abandoned for commercial guns. And this is another 'Mixmaster", so I think it is a bit pricey.

tpellenb · 08-20-2016, 06:10 PM

It's a fun game playing spot the "fake". Enjoyable to scrutinize photos and see blatant red flags. Case in point all straw items on this GB post are blued.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2P0tUV1Cvs&app=desktop

tpellenb · 08-20-2016, 06:55 PM

Alright so talk to me about this...

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...ducts_id=49159

Edward Tinker · 08-20-2016, 08:10 PM

Going to well known and trusted sites is your best bet. Simpson, LTD is a good choice.

I did not go to look at the gun you mention, but overall, although sometimes more expensive, Simpson has a good reputation.

I think you need to decide if you want a war time artillery or a long barrel post war luger....

George Anderson · 08-20-2016, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tpellenb

Alright so talk to me about this...

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...ducts_id=49159

A good one to stay away from.

08-17-2016, 11:50 PM	#1
tpellenb User Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Wilmington Delaware Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Seeking Artillery Hi All, So I'm a long time admirer and relatively new P08 owner. Got the itch about a month ago when visiting a local shop. The guys there cater in fine firearms and happened to have a few decent examples. I was in love the second I saw mine in the flesh. Mauser 1936, S/42 all matching #'s (except mag) and 90-95% condition. Can't lie, I'm obsessed. They're sublimely constructed and ergonomically impeccable. Have determined I'll own at least a couple in my lifetime. In fact I'm more than a little interested in buying another relatively soon. This brings me here. I'm very sure I'd like my next gun to be an Artillery. Bought Luger Tips and have been studying forums and other information. Feel I've got a pretty good handle on the basics of the artillery. Having said this I'm here soliciting advice. Obviously don't want to go broke but am wondering what I should expect for $2000-3000 range. Naturally I'd like matching parts on an original gun, with or without matching mag, and 90+% finish with sound mechanicals. I intend to shoot this gun but treat it like it'll never be shot. My local shop is sitting on a number of these but cannot sell until they receive permission from the spouse of the departed owner. This has proven difficult. I've investigated the guns and they're mint. Shop staff are keeping me in mind but I doubt they'll be at my price point when released. No problems bringing another into the shop though. Best regards, Tim

08-18-2016, 10:26 AM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	[QUOTE=tpellenb Question, were artillery guns ever numbered in the commercial fashion?[/QUOTE] No. Last edited by George Anderson; 08-22-2016 at 09:07 PM.

08-20-2016, 08:10 PM	#19
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Going to well known and trusted sites is your best bet. Simpson, LTD is a good choice. I did not go to look at the gun you mention, but overall, although sometimes more expensive, Simpson has a good reputation. I think you need to decide if you want a war time artillery or a long barrel post war luger.... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-18-2016, 12:13 AM	#2
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	Where in Wilmington do you live Tim? That's where I lived before I moved to Kennett Wayne

08-18-2016, 12:43 AM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I'd think that $2k to $3k should get you a very nice matching original gun, although probably not a particularly rare one. The holster, stock, and accessories will push that price up pretty fast, however. Just don't jump at the first one you see, but take time to study and watch the market. Watch the on line gun auctions, Simpson, Ltd, etc. Welcome aboard! dju

08-18-2016, 10:42 AM	#6
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 522 Thanks: 0 Thanked 271 Times in 118 Posts	George, I wish to disagree. Commercial artillery lugers were numbered in the commercial fashion. An example is for sale on Joe Salter's website. https://www.joesalter.com/category/p...ger-by-DWM-9mm KFS

08-18-2016, 12:10 PM	#7
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	Those "commrecial artilleries" are cobbled together from parts during the post war era.

08-18-2016, 01:17 PM	#8
tpellenb User Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Wilmington Delaware Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	But that would still count as an artillery correct? It's not some scam Frankengun built decades later, rather it was assembled relatively soon after the war by a commercial manufacturer and would have hidden #'s.

08-18-2016, 02:23 PM	#9
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 522 Thanks: 0 Thanked 271 Times in 118 Posts	The post war commercial lugers may have employed surplus parts but they are more than frankenguns. Note that the receiver is marked "safe" and the extractor is marked "loaded" for the American market. Also note the commercial style marking and the lack of military proofs. KFS

08-19-2016, 09:56 AM	#11
tpellenb User Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Wilmington Delaware Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	A couple questions for everyone... 1.) What should make me suspicious? It's sometimes difficult to judge a gun through online auction photos, which I suppose is a red flag in of itself. Aside from mismatching blue or straw, the near perfection of blue, lack of detail, scrutiny of proofs, etc., what are some things I should look for or be on the lookout for? 2.) Similarly, If you had to describe a unique, rare, or valuable feature what would it be? I'm referring to anything which might subtly render an ordinary gun extraordinary. Not a spring chicken, but not advanced either. Why the advice is appreciated. Thanks guys, Tim

08-19-2016, 10:33 AM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Experience and handling many, many examples are the only true school for evaluating a firearm. That being said, I look for sharp, well defined edges on all surfaces. Well fitting grips with no overlap, no shortness and no slop. As you mention, crisp and well defined markings. Proper overall wear and finish colors. Short of visiting an extensive collection with someone who has profound knowledge of the subject, I would purchase as many books as you can afford.

08-19-2016, 03:05 PM	#14
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Regarding your second question, certain models are rare, such as the 1914 Erfurt artilleries, etc, while other guns are deemed rare by just a marking or number. While I don't run away from Lugers with a rare marking, or a matching mag, etc, I never pay a premium for it either. The rationale being that those are the most likely boosted guns out there, and quite honestly I doubt that I could tell a boosted one from an original. But if I don't throw stupid money at it for that marking, who cares? Case in point the deaths' head markings. Interesting, but sssssoooooo controversial. Overall experience will help you ID deficiencies. The number of years of experience directly correlates with the % of red flags detected, however we've probably all been disappointed at one time or another. And internet or long distance sales have a higher incidence of disappointment than close-up, hands-on examination. At the very least demand a 3 day non-firing exam period, and share your concerns here. dju

08-19-2016, 03:44 PM	#15
spacecoast User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: FL and PA Posts: 332 Thanks: 276 Thanked 243 Times in 109 Posts	The gun advertised as a Commercial Artillery at Joe Salter - https://www.joesalter.com/category/p...ger-by-DWM-9mm - falls right in the middle of the 2,000 gun .30 cal Safe/Loaded range. Without a matching number on the barrel, I would have to agree with George and think that it was a standard .30 cal S/L gun with the barrel replaced later.

08-20-2016, 06:10 PM	#17
tpellenb User Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Wilmington Delaware Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	It's a fun game playing spot the "fake". Enjoyable to scrutinize photos and see blatant red flags. Case in point all straw items on this GB post are blued. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2P0tUV1Cvs&app=desktop

08-20-2016, 06:55 PM	#18
tpellenb User Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Wilmington Delaware Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Alright so talk to me about this... http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...ducts_id=49159