What is it?

[Beginner]

I am looking at a p.08 Krieghoff, that appears identical to the gun that appears on Page 314 of Kenyon's book - the only difference is the gun under inspection is a 9m/m whereas the gun in the book is 7.65m/m.
Altho the gun is serialed on the frame and barrel and has an "I" suffix, it does not have the "P" typical of commercials, or any other surface numbers
The frame has a vertical c/U, and the barrel has the c/U and the Kreighoff eagle2 proof mark
Grips are brown plastic:

bigbye:

[ithacaartist]

Welcome Mike,

I wouldn't worry, most HK Lugers were military, thus 9mm.

I'm pretty sure the "P" you're looking for is a Swiss marking for commercials, not German or other.

We'd like to see some pics!

[guns3545]

Mike,

Welcome to the Forum.

As previously stated pictures are essential for anyone to provide definitive answers to your question.

First, the easy part: In the 20s, DWM did manufacture two variations of Lugers for resale by Krieghoff. Outside of the name Krieghoff on the back frame or sideframe, there was nothing actually manufactured by Krieghoff. The guns were a neat add-on to their sporting arms business.

However, these guns had to conform with the International Control Commission's restrictions on German arms manufacturers. This affected barrel lengths and calibers. But both 7.65 and 9mm are observed.

There was a third variation illustrated on page 314 to which you refer. I have never seen the pistol and outside of this one example, I am not aware of any other existant. So??? And yes, I know that Gibson acknowledges the possibility of DWM building such a variation. But then why regress on the logo when they actually started to build P.08s for the LW themselves?

All three of these variations had commercial proofing and walnut grip panels. All were serialized with 4 digits and an i-suffix. That's it, no "P" on these resale variations.

Sadly, the gun you have described does not appear to fall into any of these three categories. That's why we need pictures.

But here are a couple of things to consider:

1. The Luftwaffe did not exist until 1933/34, maybe only in 1935. Thus there was no Luftwaffenamt stamp, i.e. the eagle 2 when DWM was making these guns.
2. Plastic/bakelite grips did not come into use until the mid-1930s. Krieghoff started using them in 1936.

There is one last possibility to explain this piece and I hesitate to mention it. But..HK did rework thousands of guns of literally every manufacturer. They did not re-serialize them but added various parts in the rework process. A few of these reworks have been observed with LWaA2 proofs on parts.

Hope this helps. Pictures!!! Without them, it is really difficult to comment with any authority. Could be that only a detailed examination of the piece itself will reveal its secrets.

John

[1933 FORD NUT]

Agreed on the pics needed . I would be REAL interested in good close ups of the E2 marking and the center toggle link . Doesn't it seem odd the logo is late S and newer style ?

[Ben M.]

C/u or C/n ?

C/u/u is seen with mauser but hav 2 u's

[Edward Tinker]

I made it so he can now receive emails after a posting, hopefully he then comes back.

Ed

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by guns3545

...First, the easy part: In the 20s, DWM did manufacture two variations of Lugers for resale by Krieghoff...

John,

I am only aware of the "Krieghoff SUHL" back-frame stamped variation. Could you describe the other?

--Dwight

[Beginner]

First an apology - Remember I am a beginner
My first error was to reference the proofs as C/U - I meant C/N

The C/N appears in vertical form on receiver. The C/N also appears on the barrel followed by an Eagle 2, followed by the S/N as 8169 i
The front edge of frame also has 8169i; side plate (bottom edge), trigger, thumb safety lever, locking bolt, and sear bar, all numbered "69"
Toggle has H/Anchor/K and Krieghoff over Suhl, on top, with Eagle2, "69" and 5 pointed star on underside;
Rear of frame at lanyard loop has "SUHL" (not Krieghoff Suhl)
Inspection of frame under right grip has a "7" meaning someone at Krieghoff inspected the frame
Breechblock has vertical C/N
Grips = brown, plain edge, Bakelite (passed hot pin test)
No date or other marking on top of receiver

My source for descriptions was Randall Gibson's book

Here's my question - my research disclosed there were approximately 1,500 DWM's produced with Krieghoff toggles, 1,000 with side plate inscriptions, and 500 without (page 314 Kenyon), this occurred before Krieghoff began making their own P.08's FACT: Krieghoff's "Eagle2" proof did not appear before 1935 - could this be a DWM reworked by Krieghoff after 1935 ?? Would that explain the numbering done in a fashion not typical of Krieghoff's numbering schemes?

Now I can say "What is this thing?

[Beginner]

How do I upload pictures ??

[John Sabato]

Originally Posted by Beginner

How do I upload pictures ??

There is a sticky post in the New Collectors Forum with instructions, (courtesy of Sheepherder)

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=23172

[Beginner]

Gentlemen
The Eagle 2 is of the earliest type of Krieghoff Acceptance mark
The "2" is clearly seen below the center of the Eagle which is also clearly see-able
In Gibson's book (Page 99) the mark is referred to as "LWaA 1st Stage Early" and LWaA2 2nd

Maybe that helps - will try to post photos tomorrow

[1933 FORD NUT]

Beginner , Make sure you post pics of the rear frame ears straight on from the side . Also the area below the trigger guard on the front grip strap . Krieghoff produced frames are pretty distinctive in these areas . Not going to even guess at what you have there but I am VERY interested in seeing what it is . Dave

[Beginner]

Gentlemen,
Attached are some photos of the mystery gun - some may be repeats - apparently some phots were too "large" so I had to do one at a time
The "description" uploaded is a summary of my observations of the gun, and where possible, the gun was compared to photos in Gibson's book with page references, etc

Thank you for your input and you interest

Cordially Mike

[Beginner]

Attached are my observations of the mystery gun

Where possible the gun was compared to photos in Gibson's book Page references are given

Thanks for your interest

[1933 FORD NUT]

Frame is definitely not HK and the gun looks to be a DWM . See following pics of stuff out of MN and you may see some scary similarities . The barrel proof is an old fake many call " stork legs " or " pterodactyl " . Sorry and I hope you didn't pay a huge price . Dave

[Ron Wood]

Don't know much about Krieghoffs, but I can say that the frame is DWM.
Ron