T.M. P Kasten : Trommel Magazine Ammunition box

DonVoigt · 10-20-2016, 09:23 PM

A new to me "P Kasten", which is the box designed to hold 5 trommel magazines, a loader, and some 24 sixteen round boxes for the L. P 08 ; the "Artillery Luger".

This one must have quite a history, as we often say "if it could only talk".

Probably made about 1917 when the TM or "snail drum" was beginning to be used by the Germans. Perhaps it also served the Weimar police as a magazine for the Erma sub-machine gun.

Some how it survived two world wars, and years of use -probably as a tool box, until it was "found" in Poland by a forum member and imported to the US. When imported the "guts" had been stripped out and it was just an empty box as seen below. The interior was restored to the condition you see, using an original box as a pattern.

I have since added a couple TM's, loader, and reproduction WWI ammo boxes.

I have another TM, but as you can see- need two more to fill it up!

beachbaker · 10-20-2016, 09:36 PM

Don, very nice set up as it appears you restored it right. Curt

gunnertwo · 10-21-2016, 12:45 AM

The ultimate accessory!!

G2

beachbaker · 10-21-2016, 11:56 AM

Don, what variations are your Trommels?

DonVoigt · 10-21-2016, 12:01 PM

Curt,
the two in the P Kasten are Numrich reproduction mags, I have a 2 nd model Bing in the safe.
I'd like to find/buy a first model at a decent price for the box, and may go with another repro to "fill it up". Not sure I want to invest in 5 originals!

LU1900 · 10-21-2016, 08:46 PM

Nice box Don , I realy enjoy it , owning three myself
/
Have a look to the pdf in my signature for pics

cirelaw · 10-21-2016, 08:58 PM

Perfect!!! Where did you find the repo ammo blue boxes?? I searched for years!!

DonVoigt · 10-21-2016, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beachbaker

Don, very nice set up as it appears you restored it right. Curt

Curt,
I can't take credit for the inside dividers, they were done by
Kris Antczak who is a talented wood worker

.

Keoki was kind enough to supply the "master" patterns by furnishing one of his original boxes for a pattern.

DonVoigt · 10-21-2016, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Perfect!!! Where did you find the repo ammo blue boxes?? I searched for years!!

Erick,
I copied the labels and used rubber cement to affix to WWII and repro boxes.

They are ok, but I want to do more of a higher quality when I can buy/borrow a good box of WWI ammo.

DonVoigt · 10-21-2016, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LU1900

Nice box Don , I realy enjoy it , owning three myself
/
Have a look to the pdf in my signature for pics

Patrice,
thanks. I have looked at your pdf- it convinced me that I really did want to own a P Kasten! Nice boxes and great presentation.
Thanks for sharing yours, they are an inspiration to spend $$!

Edward Tinker · 10-21-2016, 10:31 PM

This is really nice project - and reminded me that I happened to see this on my computer today

DonVoigt · 10-21-2016, 10:37 PM

Yes, I believe those are the P Kasten of member Patrice in France.

Dick Herman · 10-22-2016, 12:36 AM

Thank you Patrice.
Your pdf solved a mystery for me.
I have searched for which country the two men in uniform in Picture 31 are from. The picture indicates Sept. 1938 in Czechoslovakia.

I was doing research on the Condor Division in the Spanish Civil War. I could not identify the uniforms on the men in Picture 31. I did not find any information on Czech military uniforms. Thanks again for helping solve this issue.

cirelaw · 10-22-2016, 11:21 AM

Sorry, they are both faded~ Picture from Jans' Imperial~

sheepherder · 10-22-2016, 11:40 AM

Don, I was surprised to see in your first post that the box lid had a single 'door hinge' on it rather than a full-width piano hinge. Do you believe the 'door hinge' is original???

laoshi75 · 10-22-2016, 12:24 PM

Richard, if I am not mistaken there were several manufacturers of these very rare boxes; some subtles differences you may have seen on other boxes ?
Don, congratulations on this wonderful accessory !

lugerholsterrepair · 10-22-2016, 12:26 PM

Do you believe the 'door hinge' is original??? No doubt about it. ALL original P-Kasten I know of were made this way. Strange that the Germans would use only the one hinge but that's the way they were made.

George Anderson · 10-22-2016, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Don, I was surprised to see in your first post that the box lid had a single 'door hinge' on it rather than a full-width piano hinge. Do you believe the 'door hinge' is original???

All I have seen or had have a single hinge.

DonVoigt · 10-22-2016, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Don, I was surprised to see in your first post that the box lid had a single 'door hinge' on it rather than a full-width piano hinge. Do you believe the 'door hinge' is original???

No signs it ever had anything else on it; other pictures seem the same.

Take a look at Patrice's site.

sheepherder · 10-22-2016, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

No signs it ever had anything else on it; other pictures seem the same.

Take a look at Patrice's site.

I did. I noticed the 1938 pic with the soldiers holding Bergman SMG's and trommel magazines, which is interesting. I've read that 'rear echelon' troops were issued the Bergman's in WW II, so it would follow they would have the trommel magazine chests as well.

But in my own limited experience, we carried handguns and magazines in a steel box about the same size as the trommel chest (for bulk transport) and if we had it open and needed to move it quickly, we'd grab the lid and carry it along to wherever we needed it. It had the full-width piano hinge. No one would bother to close it and latch it and use the carry handle - No, we'd just grab it and run it over to the firing position.

The wooden trommel chest with the single center hinge wouldn't last too long with that kind of abuse, I think...

10-20-2016, 09:23 PM	#1
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	T.M. P Kasten : Trommel Magazine Ammunition box A new to me "P Kasten", which is the box designed to hold 5 trommel magazines, a loader, and some 24 sixteen round boxes for the L. P 08 ; the "Artillery Luger". This one must have quite a history, as we often say "if it could only talk". Probably made about 1917 when the TM or "snail drum" was beginning to be used by the Germans. Perhaps it also served the Weimar police as a magazine for the Erma sub-machine gun. Some how it survived two world wars, and years of use -probably as a tool box, until it was "found" in Poland by a forum member and imported to the US. When imported the "guts" had been stripped out and it was just an empty box as seen below. The interior was restored to the condition you see, using an original box as a pattern. I have since added a couple TM's, loader, and reproduction WWI ammo boxes. I have another TM, but as you can see- need two more to fill it up! Attached Thumbnails __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

10-20-2016, 09:36 PM	#2
beachbaker Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: california Posts: 135 Thanks: 27 Thanked 106 Times in 29 Posts	Don, very nice set up as it appears you restored it right. Curt __________________ Curt

10-21-2016, 11:56 AM	#4
beachbaker Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: california Posts: 135 Thanks: 27 Thanked 106 Times in 29 Posts	Don, what variations are your Trommels? __________________ Curt

10-21-2016, 12:01 PM	#5
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Curt, the two in the P Kasten are Numrich reproduction mags, I have a 2 nd model Bing in the safe. I'd like to find/buy a first model at a decent price for the box, and may go with another repro to "fill it up". Not sure I want to invest in 5 originals! __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

10-21-2016, 08:46 PM	#6
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 908 Thanks: 42 Thanked 469 Times in 197 Posts	Nice box Don , I realy enjoy it , owning three myself / Have a look to the pdf in my signature for pics __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

10-21-2016, 12:45 AM	#3
gunnertwo User Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Nampa, Idaho Posts: 623 Thanks: 826 Thanked 930 Times in 363 Posts	The ultimate accessory!! G2

10-21-2016, 08:58 PM	#7
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Perfect!!! Where did you find the repo ammo blue boxes?? I searched for years!!

10-21-2016, 10:31 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	This is really nice project - and reminded me that I happened to see this on my computer today Attached Thumbnails

10-21-2016, 10:37 PM	#12
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Yes, I believe those are the P Kasten of member Patrice in France. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

10-22-2016, 12:36 AM	#13
Dick Herman User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 302 Thanks: 496 Thanked 354 Times in 138 Posts	Thank you Patrice. Your pdf solved a mystery for me. I have searched for which country the two men in uniform in Picture 31 are from. The picture indicates Sept. 1938 in Czechoslovakia. I was doing research on the Condor Division in the Spanish Civil War. I could not identify the uniforms on the men in Picture 31. I did not find any information on Czech military uniforms. Thanks again for helping solve this issue. Last edited by Dick Herman; 10-22-2016 at 08:57 PM. Reason: Added Condor Division

10-22-2016, 11:21 AM	#14
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	2 ww1 ammo Sorry, they are both faded~ Picture from Jans' Imperial~ Attached Thumbnails

10-22-2016, 11:40 AM	#15
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	Don, I was surprised to see in your first post that the box lid had a single 'door hinge' on it rather than a full-width piano hinge. Do you believe the 'door hinge' is original??? __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

10-22-2016, 12:24 PM	#16
laoshi75 User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Thailand/France Posts: 490 Thanks: 288 Thanked 96 Times in 41 Posts	Richard, if I am not mistaken there were several manufacturers of these very rare boxes; some subtles differences you may have seen on other boxes ? Don, congratulations on this wonderful accessory !

10-22-2016, 12:26 PM	#17
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Do you believe the 'door hinge' is original??? No doubt about it. ALL original P-Kasten I know of were made this way. Strange that the Germans would use only the one hinge but that's the way they were made. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."