Swapping Complet toggle assembly

sandromxp · 04-02-2017, 08:14 PM

Hi

I just bought a 1940 42 Mauser. I originally wanted just a shooter but I bought a beautiful example from a member here. I also bought a complete breechblock, ejector and grips from the Lugerdoc so I don't break any numbers parts as mine is all matching except for the magazine. To make matters worse I just won on gunbroker a complete 42/S toggle assembly including the breechblock. The question I have is if I just swap the complete toggle assembly should I have it check for headspace? As both assembly's should be identical I think I should be ok. But I just want to make sure.

Thanks
Sandro

DavidJayUden · 04-02-2017, 09:23 PM

While a gunsmith may advise differently, I'd probably swap and go.
dju

ithacaartist · 04-03-2017, 01:39 AM

It's worth a try. But ultimately no guarantees...

Edward Tinker · 04-03-2017, 01:58 AM

As said above gunsmith smart thing.

I have done it a number of times, observing if issues and have not had any.

DavidJayUden · 04-03-2017, 09:06 AM

If you are uncomfortable but too cheap/lazy to consult a gunsmith, as am I, load only one round the first time out and then examine the fired brass for signs of bulging , splitting, etc.
Or contact one of our forum members like LugerDoc or G.T, and see what they have to say.
Or get a set of GO and NO-GO gauges and see for yourself.
Good luck and happy shooting.
dju

mrerick · 04-03-2017, 10:12 AM

The 9mm Luger round headspaces on the mouth of the cartridge. There is a ridge in the chamber that the mouth of the cartridge rests upon.

The toggle train length determines how close the breech face is to the head of the cartridge when it rests in battery. As it grips the cartridge in the extractor, it must be long enough to press the cartridge mouth against that ridge in the chamber.

As long as you're not trying to mix components from different frame length guns it will probably be correct and within tolerance. You can do measurements if needed, or get a set of 9mm headspace gauges (especially the "Field" gauge) to ensure it's right. The train should not close on a field gauge.

Marc

rhuff · 04-03-2017, 02:50 PM

I have swapped out a few complete toggle trains with no problem. You want to pay close attention that everything moves smoothly and no binding. Purchase, or make some dummy rounds to cycle through it before using live ammo.

sandromxp · 04-05-2017, 01:03 PM

Thanks. I'm sure since its mil spec it should be ok but I'll have a gunsmith check it out when I get the new toggle. Better safe than sorry

DonVoigt · 04-05-2017, 01:55 PM

Chances of a problem are slim.

There is no difference in a long receiver and short receiver from the breech face back.
The extra "length" is all at the front and they do require a different length shank on the barrel; so the toggles are identical(within tolerance).

Here is a long shank barrel(made for the long receiver) installed in a "short" receiver using a spacer ring. The difference in the receivers is approx 1/10", i.e. the thickness of the ring shown.

Rick W. · 04-05-2017, 04:05 PM

Having things looked at is a wise decision in my opinion.

These guns are getting to be close to a 100 years old, passing thru a lot of hands, and originally were hand fitted. To me, numbers matching, means nothing to the shooter type; it is the fit that matters in actual use.

The Luger breeching system is one that has a cut for the extractor and one for the feed ramp. Both intrude into the chamber proper. How original ..........is original? Cartridge heads are strengthened at the head, and a little ways up the case body, not a long ways though. So the more case exposure you have, the more potential for issues occur. There are dwgs around that show the original numbers for this criteria if so interested.

One always hears about headspace in firearms. Headspace is only one safety criteria for a shooting weapon. Oddly enough, one could remove 1/2 of the shank of a Luger, and it could still pass headspace dimensions, but of course, would be completely unsafe.

04-02-2017, 08:14 PM	#1
sandromxp User Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 35 Thanks: 9 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Swapping Complet toggle assembly Hi I just bought a 1940 42 Mauser. I originally wanted just a shooter but I bought a beautiful example from a member here. I also bought a complete breechblock, ejector and grips from the Lugerdoc so I don't break any numbers parts as mine is all matching except for the magazine. To make matters worse I just won on gunbroker a complete 42/S toggle assembly including the breechblock. The question I have is if I just swap the complete toggle assembly should I have it check for headspace? As both assembly's should be identical I think I should be ok. But I just want to make sure. Thanks Sandro

04-03-2017, 01:39 AM	#3
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	It's worth a try. But ultimately no guarantees... __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

04-03-2017, 10:12 AM	#6
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	The 9mm Luger round headspaces on the mouth of the cartridge. There is a ridge in the chamber that the mouth of the cartridge rests upon. The toggle train length determines how close the breech face is to the head of the cartridge when it rests in battery. As it grips the cartridge in the extractor, it must be long enough to press the cartridge mouth against that ridge in the chamber. As long as you're not trying to mix components from different frame length guns it will probably be correct and within tolerance. You can do measurements if needed, or get a set of 9mm headspace gauges (especially the "Field" gauge) to ensure it's right. The train should not close on a field gauge. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

04-05-2017, 01:55 PM	#9
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Chances of a problem are slim. There is no difference in a long receiver and short receiver from the breech face back. The extra "length" is all at the front and they do require a different length shank on the barrel; so the toggles are identical(within tolerance). Here is a long shank barrel(made for the long receiver) installed in a "short" receiver using a spacer ring. The difference in the receivers is approx 1/10", i.e. the thickness of the ring shown. Attached Thumbnails __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

04-02-2017, 09:23 PM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	While a gunsmith may advise differently, I'd probably swap and go. dju

04-03-2017, 01:58 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	As said above gunsmith smart thing. I have done it a number of times, observing if issues and have not had any.

04-03-2017, 09:06 AM	#5
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	If you are uncomfortable but too cheap/lazy to consult a gunsmith, as am I, load only one round the first time out and then examine the fired brass for signs of bulging , splitting, etc. Or contact one of our forum members like LugerDoc or G.T, and see what they have to say. Or get a set of GO and NO-GO gauges and see for yourself. Good luck and happy shooting. dju

04-03-2017, 02:50 PM	#7
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,291 Thanks: 2,709 Thanked 972 Times in 717 Posts	I have swapped out a few complete toggle trains with no problem. You want to pay close attention that everything moves smoothly and no binding. Purchase, or make some dummy rounds to cycle through it before using live ammo.

04-05-2017, 01:03 PM	#8
sandromxp User Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 35 Thanks: 9 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks. I'm sure since its mil spec it should be ok but I'll have a gunsmith check it out when I get the new toggle. Better safe than sorry

04-05-2017, 04:05 PM	#10
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	Having things looked at is a wise decision in my opinion. These guns are getting to be close to a 100 years old, passing thru a lot of hands, and originally were hand fitted. To me, numbers matching, means nothing to the shooter type; it is the fit that matters in actual use. The Luger breeching system is one that has a cut for the extractor and one for the feed ramp. Both intrude into the chamber proper. How original ..........is original? Cartridge heads are strengthened at the head, and a little ways up the case body, not a long ways though. So the more case exposure you have, the more potential for issues occur. There are dwgs around that show the original numbers for this criteria if so interested. One always hears about headspace in firearms. Headspace is only one safety criteria for a shooting weapon. Oddly enough, one could remove 1/2 of the shank of a Luger, and it could still pass headspace dimensions, but of course, would be completely unsafe.