Can You Help Me Identify This Luger?

[billyboy1661]

This is my father-in-law's Luger that he relieved from an officer at the end of WWII. Unfortunately that is all I know about it since it have no markings or serial numbers on the gun itself. There is one small marking on the gun near the trigger that you will see in an attached photo and that is it.

Can anyone help me to identify it?

Thank you.

[mrerick]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

What you have appears to be a M1900 pattern Luger.

Is there a part missing in the toggle retention? If so, be careful, and don't fire it. There also appears to be a retention spring broken or missing from the takedown lever.

The magazine is WW-II vintage, but the gun is much earlier.

Soft buffed edges on the frame look like the pistol was refinished at some point.

It also looks like it probably has a .30 Luger caliber barrel on it. Someone has replaced the left and right grip screws with an incorrect part, and probably damaged the Whitworth threads in the frame.

I'd need to see details of the exterior markings to tell you much more. Are the other markings still visible, or were they and things like the serial numbers removed? The small "D" is not a normal Luger marking, and may have been applied by the person that reworked the gun.

Officers did not usually carry Lugers. They were too large and bulky. Officers carried smaller pistols like the Walther PP and PPK.

As the serial numbers appear to have been removed, this will cause you problems with the ATF. I believe that there is a procedure for submitting it to have serial numbers applied to the pistol and make it legal.

[DonVoigt]

Marc,
there is no picture where the serial number would be on the frame- have you more info?

Serial numbers did not normally appear on the left or right chamber of the early commercial lugers, but on the frame front and usually the bottom of the barrel.

[billyboy1661]

I can certainly send more photos but there are no serial numbers or other markings on the gun anywhere. The only markings are the ones on the magazine and the4 small marking near the trigger.

[Jim Mac]

I thought serial numbers weren't required until 1968?

[Ron Wood]

A 1900 Luger would have been serial numbered, the 1968 requirement notwithstanding. The toggle lock is a non-factory replacement, the take down lever has a been altered with a large button and the front sight has been changed. The whole gun has been worked over and although some of the workmanship seems well done, it is far from original. Why the serial numbers were removed is anybody's guess.

[billyboy1661]

I have no reason to believe that it is a replica or that it has been altered in any way. My father-in-law did have "JOHNNY BRUCK" engraved on it when he returned but as far as other work he never mentioned that he had altered the gun in any other way. I have attached pictures of the holster that he had with the gun. Perhaps that may help.

I am wondering if this might have been some sort of prototype as well being that it has no serial numbers or other markings on it. Is that possible?

Thank you.

[Edward Tinker]

its possible, but what we need are some clear pictures

front of the frame - close and clear
top off and show underside of the barrel


ed

[DonVoigt]

Possible but not likely to be a prototype, as anything is possible.

It has indeed been messed with as Ron says. Ron pointed out the toggle lock, the front sight is also replaced.

Pictures of the bottom of the receiver and barrel, at the junction between them are helpful, close up and focused; as would be a picture of the inside of the receiver where the take down lever passes through, should be some markings in each place.

Why is the toggle not closed and locked?

The markings on the back of the holster are those of the police, the Schupo of Merseburg.

[kurusu]

I will add to both Don Voigt and Ron Wood.

It was surely messed with. But that could have happened well before your in-law set his eyes on it. We have to remember that Lugers only gained "collectible" status long after WWII ended, before that they were only pistols, fair game for any modification that, the at the time owner, thought best.

"Bubba" is not patented to the USA.

PS. @ Billyboy1661. RW is not saying it's a replica. That "made after 1818 is a reproduction" is just his signature line.

[Ron Wood]

I get into more trouble with that signature line...but that is OK, I'm too old to change now.

I would really like to see a couple more detail shots of that toggle lock. It looks almost like a modification to unlatch the lock to make it easier to work the toggle to load the weapon. A lot of folks have difficulty in understanding that on an Old Model you have to pull the toggle knobs slightly to the rear and then up. The knurling at the top of the latch on this gun might indicate that by depressing the latch at the top it frees it from the catch on the frame, eliminating the need to first pull the knobs to the rear. An interesting possibility.
Ron

[mrerick]

Don, he said that there were no visible serial numbers.

BillyBoy, the reason we're asking for detailed sharp focus photos of the areas is that we can often see where the metal was altered. There is no question that it's been changed since leaving the factory.

It's not a prototype. Those were marked in unique and known ways.

[Ben M.]

grip screws appear to have washers on them
and something pointy behind the toggle knobs?

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by Ben M.

grip screws appear to have washers on them
and something pointy behind the toggle knobs?

The grip screws have washers on them as they are not original screws and the small head on the screw requires a washer to secure the grips. The "pointy" thing behind the toggle knobs is just the flat abutment behind the toggle knob that is visible because the action is not closed.

[Sergio Natali]

Originally Posted by billyboy1661

I can certainly send more photos but there are no serial numbers or other markings on the gun anywhere. The only markings are the ones on the magazine and the4 small marking near the trigger.

How is possible to buy and own a gun without its serial number?
I'm sure there are millions of guns out there without serial numbers, FWIK really vintage guns were often made without serial numbers, although sometime in the gun life the owner should have taken it to the Police and done all the papers to have is serialized.
The lack of the s/n is often an indicator of a stolen gun here and owning a gun like that would lead you in serious troubles.

[billyboy1661]

Hello everyone and thank you for your comments and explanations. I am learning a great deal!

I am also beginning to understand the gun mechanisms better. I noticed that comments were made about the toggle not being locked and properly seated and i have fixed that. The was a pin that was slightly misaligned in the toggle mechanism that was causing it to hang up and not close completely. I was able to move that pin back in place and voila' it now is completely closed.

I have also attached additional photos as requested and I hope these are clear and focused for you. If anyone needs another photo other than what I have attached just let me know and I'll do my best to get that to you.

Thank you all once again for your assistance!

[Ron Wood]

Bill,
Those are great photos, thank you for adding them! I am confident that my assessment of the toggle lock modification is correct…pressing the knurled top “button” allows the latch to be disconnected without pulling back on the toggle. The large extended button on the takedown lever makes it easier to rotate the lever for disassembly/assembly. The modifications are clever additions by a relatively talented gunsmith, either for himself or for a client who may have had arthritis or some other problem that made it difficult to operate the functions of the gun…or he may have done it just as an exercise in improving ergonomics! At any rate it is an interesting piece and I have enjoyed seeing it.
Ron

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

How is possible to buy and own a gun without its serial number?
I'm sure there are millions of guns out there without serial numbers, FWIK really vintage guns were often made without serial numbers, although sometime in the gun life the owner should have taken it to the Police and done all the papers to have is serialized.
The lack of the s/n is often an indicator of a stolen gun here and owning a gun like that would lead you in serious troubles.

I do not think the lack of serial number on this gun is a problem. True, it is illegal to remove or alter the serial number on a weapon, but given that this is a quite early piece and the modifications were most likely done prior to 1968 I doubt very seriously that BATFE would have any issues with it. It can be transferred by listing NSN (no serial number) on the paperwork as is usually done for pre-1968 guns without a serial number.
Just my opinion
Ron

[billyboy1661]

Thank you for your comments Ron.

Here's is something that occurred to me as I continued to do more research on era of this gun. During the Weimer Era after WWI beginning in 1918, Germany was destabilized economically and there was a geat deal of unrest. Police were oftentimes soldiers returning from the war and with lack of funds many were forced make due with the firearms they had and it was probably not unlikely for guns to be altered. I also read an article that likened the Weimer Era from 1918 - 1933 as Germany’s “Roaring Twenties” with a many criminal gangs involved in narcotics, gambling, prostitution, etc. Perhaps in such a lawless time it might not be that uncommon for a gun like mine to be changed leaving no identification markings - even if it were a police sidearm.

If the markings on the holster represent the Schupo of Merseburg and it is an m1900 frame, could this be a possible explanation?

It's at least an entertaining thought!

[John Sabato]

All,

I would also like to express an opinion that the knob that has been added to the takedown lever appears to have been put there because the lever is broken off. Probably caused by an attempt to disassemble the gun by prying the lever down. The knob looks to have been attached to the remaining stub. Pretty clever mod...

As far as the lack of serial numbers... well it is only my opinion, but in the photographs I do see what appears to be evidence that they were removed at some point.

The sideplate looks sort of scalloped where the number might have been to me... and there also appears to have been some work done on the front of the frame.

I would take Ron's advice and request that the gun have a serial number applied by ATF. The gun, as modified has little if any collector value IMHO.