Flaming Bomb Proof...?

Pete Ebbink · 08-24-2002, 10:09 PM

Can someone set me straight as to what the "flaming bomb" proof mark is/was and is it related to the 1,000 US Test pistols ?

Regards,

Pete <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Navy · 08-24-2002, 10:26 PM

The so called "Flaming Bomb" proof is a flaming flim-flam. It is a DWM inspection mark, has absolutely NOTHING to do with the U.S. Army Ordnance Corps acceptance stamp and its presence on the magazines and inside the frame well of the Test Eagles is simply because that inspector was "on duty" when the Test Eagles" and many, many more early lugers were manufactured,

Remember, the Test Eagles were standard production guns, pulled from DWM inventory and the production line; they were not a "special" run or produced for the Army's test.

Hope this helps.

Tom A. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

sschultz · 08-24-2002, 10:29 PM

Is there any idea when (which sn roughly) this inspector's mark ended on the 1900's? thanks -stuart

Lugerdoc · 08-25-2002, 09:28 AM

I agree with Tom A. that this was nothing more than a DWM inspector's marking in the locking bolt well of the M1900 lugers of this period. Furthermore, if this mark is looked at more closely with magnification, it resembles the astrological sign for Taurus, a semicirle atop a circle. Tom H.

Pete Ebbink · 08-25-2002, 01:44 PM

Thanks for the great info., guys !

I do not have the Costanzo WOL-1 book. Does this proof mark show up in any other book ?

Regards,

Pete <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Thor · 08-25-2002, 01:50 PM

the fbp is also in harry jones luger variations for some reason my caps dont work

Herb · 08-25-2002, 04:37 PM

Here is what Costanzo says about it on page 192, item #118: United States ordnance flaming bomb proof used only on 275 spare parts ordered in addition to 1,000 1900 Test and Acceptance models. This proof is found in the 6,100-7,100 serial number range. This proof was issued by the Springfield Armory to the U.S. cavalry for field trials and sold to Frances Bannerman in 1904. Locations noted: left side of barrel, takedown lever, side plate, left and right breech block, left rear axle, inside grips, grip screws, trigger, top sight, reciever lug, back of magazine strap, and magazine bottom.

Johnny Peppers · 08-26-2002, 01:09 AM

I have a 1900 AE approximately 500 numbers earlier than the Test Eagles and it has the "flaming bomb" proof on both the receiver and frame. It is in the recoil lug well and just ahead of the recoil lug on the receiver.

Navy · 08-26-2002, 10:40 AM

The Costanzo entry is the "other" famous mistake in his otherwise great work.

No body is perfect and Sam made a mistake on this and the SD issue.

Tom A

Lugerdoc · 08-26-2002, 11:05 AM

Herb & Pete, I too have to conclude that Costanzo's description is in error. I've never seen the "flame top" inspector's marking on any of the parts that he mentions. At least he does show the US Ord marking in his book and not the German DWM inspector's mark, that most are calling a flaming bomb. I suppose that Springfield Armory may have marked some of the spare parts, as I have had a both the flame proofed and inspector's initials marked wood bottom mags from them. Tom H.

Garfield · 08-26-2002, 02:24 PM

One other Constanzo error; he attributes the C/I, II, III, holster stamps as being police acceptance marks. I believe the consensus is that they are not; rather they indicate acceptance by the Bavarian armycorps.

Frank · 08-26-2002, 03:35 PM

While I think Costanzo's Book is great, he also failed to recognize the E/83 acceptance stamp for 1938 & 1939 S/42's

sschultz · 09-04-2002, 12:57 AM

So do all 1900s have this inspector's stamp on them? I wasn't quite clear on this issue.

Pete Ebbink · 11-06-2002, 02:39 PM

Well, it took me awhile but I finally got a copy of my Sam Costanzo Book, "World of Lugers - Proofmarks, Volume 1" (thanks to Mr. Leon DeSpain...)

I have posted the following photos and info. below and still am a bit confused, so will ask the following questions :

1. Is the first "taurus bull" symbol photo I have posted the only "authentic" flaming bomb proof mark on many 1900 lugers ?

2. Is the second "flaming bomb" symbol photo I have posted not consider "authentic". Tom A., is this the "flaming bomb flim-flam" to which you refer ?

3. What symbol(s) do you folks, that own 1900 lugers, have on your pistols ?

4. The "Preface" text (...written by Ralph Shattuck...), which I have posted as my 3rd. entry below, seems to describe in detail the effort's Mr. Costanzo went to to try to document known proof marks. If he was wrong about the "flaming bomb" proof mark, can't one assume he had some actual samples from which to work ?

Or do I conclude that Mr. Costanzo was "duped" into thinking a 1900 luger with a forged proof mark was "real' at the time he did his research ?

Thanks for helping me to understand this issue...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Navy · 11-06-2002, 03:55 PM

1. Yes; although I have seen variants that more closely resemble the so called falming bomb. This is undoubtedly due to the variations in the diemaker's cutting of the face of the stamp and through wear on the stamp face.
2. Note Sam refers to the proof as being on "Spare parts"; I have never heard of the US Army proofing spare parts and I was a part of that group for 22 years. Likewise, as a Luger collector for now 40 years (Damn, I must be getting old!) I have never seen or heard of any such markings. I have no idea where the information used as the basis of this entry in WOL came from. My hunch, and it purely a hunch, is that there may have been some artistic liberties taken in converting the photographs into artist's renderings, but whadda I know about art?
3. The Taurus proof
4. Your guess is as good as mine.

I think it is salient to note that there are mistakes and screw ups in virtually every book on Lugers. Some are more readily apparent than others. Some are also hotly debated by the collecting fraternity. In the final analysis, one must follow what his intellect tells him is the most logical and rational explanation. The wonderful thing about toggle-tops is that there are so many little weird things that pop up across the 300 plus recognized variations that one simply doesn't get bored.

Tom A. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Dwight Gruber · 11-06-2002, 10:32 PM

OK, you made me look.

1900AE #13499 has what I guess people are calling the "Taurus proof"--a circle with sort of a semicircular w or semicircle with central spike, on top--in the frame lugwell. On the receiver, just in front of the lug, is a small triangle with a dot inside.

--Dwight

08-25-2002, 09:28 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I agree with Tom A. that this was nothing more than a DWM inspector's marking in the locking bolt well of the M1900 lugers of this period. Furthermore, if this mark is looked at more closely with magnification, it resembles the astrological sign for Taurus, a semicirle atop a circle. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

08-25-2002, 01:50 PM	#6
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	the fbp is also in harry jones luger variations for some reason my caps dont work __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

08-25-2002, 04:37 PM	#7
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Here is what Costanzo says about it on page 192, item #118: United States ordnance flaming bomb proof used only on 275 spare parts ordered in addition to 1,000 1900 Test and Acceptance models. This proof is found in the 6,100-7,100 serial number range. This proof was issued by the Springfield Armory to the U.S. cavalry for field trials and sold to Frances Bannerman in 1904. Locations noted: left side of barrel, takedown lever, side plate, left and right breech block, left rear axle, inside grips, grip screws, trigger, top sight, reciever lug, back of magazine strap, and magazine bottom. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-26-2002, 11:05 AM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Herb & Pete, I too have to conclude that Costanzo's description is in error. I've never seen the "flame top" inspector's marking on any of the parts that he mentions. At least he does show the US Ord marking in his book and not the German DWM inspector's mark, that most are calling a flaming bomb. I suppose that Springfield Armory may have marked some of the spare parts, as I have had a both the flame proofed and inspector's initials marked wood bottom mags from them. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

08-24-2002, 10:09 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Flaming Bomb Proof...? Can someone set me straight as to what the "flaming bomb" proof mark is/was and is it related to the 1,000 US Test pistols ? Regards, Pete <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-24-2002, 10:26 PM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	The so called "Flaming Bomb" proof is a flaming flim-flam. It is a DWM inspection mark, has absolutely NOTHING to do with the U.S. Army Ordnance Corps acceptance stamp and its presence on the magazines and inside the frame well of the Test Eagles is simply because that inspector was "on duty" when the Test Eagles" and many, many more early lugers were manufactured, Remember, the Test Eagles were standard production guns, pulled from DWM inventory and the production line; they were not a "special" run or produced for the Army's test. Hope this helps. Tom A. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

08-24-2002, 10:29 PM	#3
sschultz User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: ca Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Is there any idea when (which sn roughly) this inspector's mark ended on the 1900's? thanks -stuart

08-25-2002, 01:44 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks for the great info., guys ! I do not have the Costanzo WOL-1 book. Does this proof mark show up in any other book ? Regards, Pete <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-26-2002, 01:09 AM	#8
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have a 1900 AE approximately 500 numbers earlier than the Test Eagles and it has the "flaming bomb" proof on both the receiver and frame. It is in the recoil lug well and just ahead of the recoil lug on the receiver.

08-26-2002, 10:40 AM	#9
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	The Costanzo entry is the "other" famous mistake in his otherwise great work. No body is perfect and Sam made a mistake on this and the SD issue. Tom A

08-26-2002, 02:24 PM	#11
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	One other Constanzo error; he attributes the C/I, II, III, holster stamps as being police acceptance marks. I believe the consensus is that they are not; rather they indicate acceptance by the Bavarian armycorps.

08-26-2002, 03:35 PM	#12
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	While I think Costanzo's Book is great, he also failed to recognize the E/83 acceptance stamp for 1938 & 1939 S/42's

09-04-2002, 12:57 AM	#13
sschultz User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: ca Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So do all 1900s have this inspector's stamp on them? I wasn't quite clear on this issue.

11-06-2002, 02:39 PM	#14
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Well, it took me awhile but I finally got a copy of my Sam Costanzo Book, "World of Lugers - Proofmarks, Volume 1" (thanks to Mr. Leon DeSpain...) I have posted the following photos and info. below and still am a bit confused, so will ask the following questions : 1. Is the first "taurus bull" symbol photo I have posted the only "authentic" flaming bomb proof mark on many 1900 lugers ? 2. Is the second "flaming bomb" symbol photo I have posted not consider "authentic". Tom A., is this the "flaming bomb flim-flam" to which you refer ? 3. What symbol(s) do you folks, that own 1900 lugers, have on your pistols ? 4. The "Preface" text (...written by Ralph Shattuck...), which I have posted as my 3rd. entry below, seems to describe in detail the effort's Mr. Costanzo went to to try to document known proof marks. If he was wrong about the "flaming bomb" proof mark, can't one assume he had some actual samples from which to work ? Or do I conclude that Mr. Costanzo was "duped" into thinking a 1900 luger with a forged proof mark was "real' at the time he did his research ? Thanks for helping me to understand this issue... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-06-2002, 03:55 PM	#15
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	1. Yes; although I have seen variants that more closely resemble the so called falming bomb. This is undoubtedly due to the variations in the diemaker's cutting of the face of the stamp and through wear on the stamp face. 2. Note Sam refers to the proof as being on "Spare parts"; I have never heard of the US Army proofing spare parts and I was a part of that group for 22 years. Likewise, as a Luger collector for now 40 years (Damn, I must be getting old!) I have never seen or heard of any such markings. I have no idea where the information used as the basis of this entry in WOL came from. My hunch, and it purely a hunch, is that there may have been some artistic liberties taken in converting the photographs into artist's renderings, but whadda I know about art? 3. The Taurus proof 4. Your guess is as good as mine. I think it is salient to note that there are mistakes and screw ups in virtually every book on Lugers. Some are more readily apparent than others. Some are also hotly debated by the collecting fraternity. In the final analysis, one must follow what his intellect tells him is the most logical and rational explanation. The wonderful thing about toggle-tops is that there are so many little weird things that pop up across the 300 plus recognized variations that one simply doesn't get bored. Tom A. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

11-06-2002, 10:32 PM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	OK, you made me look. 1900AE #13499 has what I guess people are calling the "Taurus proof"--a circle with sort of a semicircular w or semicircle with central spike, on top--in the frame lugwell. On the receiver, just in front of the lug, is a small triangle with a dot inside. --Dwight