1902 Carbine in 9 mm...

Pete Ebbink · 07-12-2003, 01:11 PM

A 1902 carbine for sale/auction that is in 9 mm...

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=10326214

I noticed the World Of Lugers' new list has one in 9 mm for sale, as well...

Is it known how many 1902 carbines are thought to have been ordered in 9 mm...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Big Norm · 07-12-2003, 08:00 PM

Pete,
I probably am speaking out of line here because I have not studied the carbine books yet, but I don't believe that there was a 9mm in 1902. My very uneducated guess is that this is a 1920 carbine. Its pretty though.
Big Norm

Pete Ebbink · 07-12-2003, 08:45 PM

Hello Norm,

I think the one on the auction that I provided a link for is a 1902 model. I believe the 1920 carbine would have the New Model toggle knobs, not the Old Model dished toggle knobs. I have read that some authors think 1920 carbines were Weimar-era "parts guns" (done at the factory...) but may not have been regular production offerings.

I was lucky enough to see a nice 1920 carbine change ownership at the November Reno gun show last fall.

The only reference I can find in my luger library (which at only 40 books is certainly not vast...) is in Fred A. Datig's book, "The Luger Pistol" on page 79 where he writes :

"...All production Luger Carbines were of one caliber, 7.65 mm. A very few were maded up on special order in caliber 9 mm, but because the bottlenecked 7.65 mm cartridge proved to be much more popular that the straight cased 9 mm round, the latter was discontinued....".

I would assume Mr. Datig was accurate with his research and findings, as he had met and interviewed both Georg Luger Jr. and August Weiss during his book research...but maybe this has been proven "not correct" in subsequent years...(?)

I have also been told by a pretty knowledgeable local collector that any "real" 1902 9 mm carbine would not have the accelerator spring in the forestock (and would have no evidence of its removal, either); as the 1902 7.65 mm carbine would have. This extra spring was apparently required to assist with the extra mass of carbine recoil at the small 7.65 mm load...

Do not know if this characteristic of a 9 mm carbine is true or not...as I have never had such a carbine in my hands to examine.

Maybe our Imperial experts on the Forum can clarify this and let us know if 9 mm carbines are accepted as very rare pieces or only spurious pieces...(?)

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Big Norm · 07-13-2003, 04:17 AM

Pete,
there is a small write-up on the 9mm in Reeses book on page 60.
Big Norm

Daniel · 07-13-2003, 11:31 AM

I would like to add to this threat....I have a 1902 DWM Carbine in 9mm, long frame dished toggles, serial #218XXX with an accelerator equipted in the forearm.

I also have a 1920 DWM Carbine in 9mm. Has a short frame and non-dished toggles. The barrel has a projected studd on the bottom that engages the accelerator and the forearm.

I think these custom Lugers came in many configurations. <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

Daniel · 07-13-2003, 11:34 AM

Sorry ...meant "thread" not " threat".....dah.. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

Pete Ebbink · 07-13-2003, 12:19 PM

Hello Daniel,

Thanks for adding the info. about your carbines...

p.s.

You can easily edit your own previous posting(s) by clicking on the picture/icon of the "notepad & pencil". This will open your original post that you want to edit/revise in a text-edit mode. Once you made the revision, save it by clicking on the "Edit Post" button at the bottom of the window...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Big Norm · 07-14-2003, 07:53 PM

Daniel,
it comes out 'Nice Going!' no matter how you spell it.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 07-14-2003, 08:14 PM

Daniel,
it comes out 'Nice Going!' no matter how you spell it.
Big Norm

Pete Ebbink · 07-15-2003, 08:26 PM

A few "newbie" questions about this 9 mm 1902 carbine :

1. The toggle lock appears to be blued or fire-blued. Should this not, typically, be strawed ?

2. The tangent sights have the same blue color on the anterior suface of the sight as well as in the numbers. Is this correct ? Or should they have the white & blued appearance of Artillery rear sights ?

3. Info. I received about the 7.65 carbine is that it not only needed a special cartridge that held a bit more black powder, but the accelerator spring in the forestock was needed to help complete the recoil cycle. The 9 mm carbine apparentely did not need a special cartirdge or the accelerator spring...as the round was powerful enough...

Would like to hear from others about whether a 9 mm carbine should have the auxillary spring...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Big Norm · 07-17-2003, 02:02 PM

Ok people, lets have some fun with this excellent specimen of a Carbine. Lets quit the meaningless chit chat. Meaningless because it does not involve money and posession. What will be the selling price? If nobody guesses then whoever is closest on the low side wins. If the gun does not sell then the same rules apply to the last bid.

Since Pete originated the discussion, then the prize will be dinner at a fine restraunt on him.

My guess is $18,000.

Big Norm

John Sabato · 07-17-2003, 02:45 PM

My guess is that the carbine will be re-listed because it won't reach its reserve price this time around

I will bet it caps out at less than $8000 (that is eight thousand... not eighteen thousand).

Norm, Does Pete have to buy me the dinner if I am right? he can just send me his credit card (which is probably near maxed out because of all the swiss lugers he buys) and I will have dinner and send it back to him

Big Norm · 07-18-2003, 03:00 PM

John,
no problem! The details are being worked out as we speak. <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />

I should have set some parameters should the carbine be re-listed. Maybe I can get Ed Tinker to cover a relisting. He said he got a big pay increase to two cents. <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
Big Norm

John Sabato · 07-21-2003, 09:55 AM

You got to watch that Ed guy... that was probably just a couple of those pennies I leave laying around on some of my posts...

Big Norm · 07-21-2003, 03:39 PM

Well, the carbine has been re-listed. I am still going to stick to my $18,000 price.

I never paid a lot of attention to carbines before because I thought they were out of my price range. So I never differentiated between a 1902 and a 1920. But I have never seen a carbine sell below $10,000. Even at $10,000 or less, I felt that I would be getting a not-so-hot condition carbine. Just looking at the listing pictures, I think that this carbine is better than that. All the carbines that I have seen, that were in good condition, had a price in the $14-16,000 range. I recently saw a minty carbine at a gun show. But, at the time, I was looking at a minty, encased DWM Borchardt set with all the tools and six, non-matching magazines at the same table and I was distracted. For those of you who are curious, the Borchardt had a price tag of $18,000.

Does anyone know if carbines had a combined holster/stock rig simular to the artillery rig?
Big Norm

Heinz · 07-22-2003, 09:12 PM

Pete, you mentioned black powder in the 1902 carbine comments. My impression is that DWM always used their own high quality (for the time) smokeless powder. Fred Datig,on page 186, refers to ".42 gram Walsrode powder" that he believes was for a Borchardt style cartridge in the 1898 Swiss tests. I think this is a smokeless load.

My experience with shooting black powder revolvers would lead me to doubt an automatic ould function more than a few shots with black powder.

regards, heinz

Pete Ebbink · 07-22-2003, 09:47 PM

Sorry, Heinz...

Just a poor choice of words. Should have said "gun powder"...

Best Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete Ebbink · 08-03-2003, 06:55 PM

I must have missed it before, but the same 9 mm carbine (# 24477) is being sold both by the World Of Lugers as well as by Phoenix Investment Arms...

WOL's price is $ 12,000.00 and PIA's price is $ 15,750.00

Is this a typical practice; for a gun owner to have two different dealers try to consignment-sell a gun ? At the same time ? I assumed a consignment sale would be an "exclusive" with one selling dealer...but may be wrong on this point...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Big Norm · 08-05-2003, 12:38 AM

Pete,
somethings wrong here. The last price on the first listing on GunBroker was $14,000 plus. The reserve price was not reached. That puts WOL out. Maybe the PIA price is the reserve price on GunBroker. Too high a price for a Midwestern guy like me. Maybe the California guys can buy it.The left coast guys have all sorts of money. (HEE! HEE!)
Big Norm

Ronald Welch · 08-07-2003, 10:15 AM

John
I have a 1920 carbine and I would think that the 1902 carbine would have the letters GL on the rear toggle?
Ron #877

07-12-2003, 01:11 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	1902 Carbine in 9 mm... A 1902 carbine for sale/auction that is in 9 mm... http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=10326214 I noticed the World Of Lugers' new list has one in 9 mm for sale, as well... Is it known how many 1902 carbines are thought to have been ordered in 9 mm...? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-17-2003, 02:45 PM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	My guess is that the carbine will be re-listed because it won't reach its reserve price this time around I will bet it caps out at less than $8000 (that is eight thousand... not eighteen thousand). Norm, Does Pete have to buy me the dinner if I am right? he can just send me his credit card (which is probably near maxed out because of all the swiss lugers he buys) and I will have dinner and send it back to him __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-21-2003, 09:55 AM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	You got to watch that Ed guy... that was probably just a couple of those pennies I leave laying around on some of my posts... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-12-2003, 08:00 PM	#2
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Pete, I probably am speaking out of line here because I have not studied the carbine books yet, but I don't believe that there was a 9mm in 1902. My very uneducated guess is that this is a 1920 carbine. Its pretty though. Big Norm

07-12-2003, 08:45 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Norm, I think the one on the auction that I provided a link for is a 1902 model. I believe the 1920 carbine would have the New Model toggle knobs, not the Old Model dished toggle knobs. I have read that some authors think 1920 carbines were Weimar-era "parts guns" (done at the factory...) but may not have been regular production offerings. I was lucky enough to see a nice 1920 carbine change ownership at the November Reno gun show last fall. The only reference I can find in my luger library (which at only 40 books is certainly not vast...) is in Fred A. Datig's book, "The Luger Pistol" on page 79 where he writes : "...All production Luger Carbines were of one caliber, 7.65 mm. A very few were maded up on special order in caliber 9 mm, but because the bottlenecked 7.65 mm cartridge proved to be much more popular that the straight cased 9 mm round, the latter was discontinued....". I would assume Mr. Datig was accurate with his research and findings, as he had met and interviewed both Georg Luger Jr. and August Weiss during his book research...but maybe this has been proven "not correct" in subsequent years...(?) I have also been told by a pretty knowledgeable local collector that any "real" 1902 9 mm carbine would not have the accelerator spring in the forestock (and would have no evidence of its removal, either); as the 1902 7.65 mm carbine would have. This extra spring was apparently required to assist with the extra mass of carbine recoil at the small 7.65 mm load... Do not know if this characteristic of a 9 mm carbine is true or not...as I have never had such a carbine in my hands to examine. Maybe our Imperial experts on the Forum can clarify this and let us know if 9 mm carbines are accepted as very rare pieces or only spurious pieces...(?) Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-13-2003, 04:17 AM	#4
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Pete, there is a small write-up on the 9mm in Reeses book on page 60. Big Norm

07-13-2003, 11:31 AM	#5
Daniel User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ct. and Ma. Posts: 152 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I would like to add to this threat....I have a 1902 DWM Carbine in 9mm, long frame dished toggles, serial #218XXX with an accelerator equipted in the forearm. I also have a 1920 DWM Carbine in 9mm. Has a short frame and non-dished toggles. The barrel has a projected studd on the bottom that engages the accelerator and the forearm. I think these custom Lugers came in many configurations. <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

07-13-2003, 11:34 AM	#6
Daniel User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ct. and Ma. Posts: 152 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry ...meant "thread" not " threat".....dah.. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

07-13-2003, 12:19 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Daniel, Thanks for adding the info. about your carbines... p.s. You can easily edit your own previous posting(s) by clicking on the picture/icon of the "notepad & pencil". This will open your original post that you want to edit/revise in a text-edit mode. Once you made the revision, save it by clicking on the "Edit Post" button at the bottom of the window... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-14-2003, 07:53 PM	#8
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Daniel, it comes out 'Nice Going!' no matter how you spell it. Big Norm

07-14-2003, 08:14 PM	#9
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Daniel, it comes out 'Nice Going!' no matter how you spell it. Big Norm

07-15-2003, 08:26 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	A few "newbie" questions about this 9 mm 1902 carbine : 1. The toggle lock appears to be blued or fire-blued. Should this not, typically, be strawed ? 2. The tangent sights have the same blue color on the anterior suface of the sight as well as in the numbers. Is this correct ? Or should they have the white & blued appearance of Artillery rear sights ? 3. Info. I received about the 7.65 carbine is that it not only needed a special cartridge that held a bit more black powder, but the accelerator spring in the forestock was needed to help complete the recoil cycle. The 9 mm carbine apparentely did not need a special cartirdge or the accelerator spring...as the round was powerful enough... Would like to hear from others about whether a 9 mm carbine should have the auxillary spring... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-17-2003, 02:02 PM	#11
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Ok people, lets have some fun with this excellent specimen of a Carbine. Lets quit the meaningless chit chat. Meaningless because it does not involve money and posession. What will be the selling price? If nobody guesses then whoever is closest on the low side wins. If the gun does not sell then the same rules apply to the last bid. Since Pete originated the discussion, then the prize will be dinner at a fine restraunt on him. My guess is $18,000. Big Norm

07-18-2003, 03:00 PM	#13
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	John, no problem! The details are being worked out as we speak. <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" /> I should have set some parameters should the carbine be re-listed. Maybe I can get Ed Tinker to cover a relisting. He said he got a big pay increase to two cents. <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> Big Norm

07-21-2003, 03:39 PM	#15
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Well, the carbine has been re-listed. I am still going to stick to my $18,000 price. I never paid a lot of attention to carbines before because I thought they were out of my price range. So I never differentiated between a 1902 and a 1920. But I have never seen a carbine sell below $10,000. Even at $10,000 or less, I felt that I would be getting a not-so-hot condition carbine. Just looking at the listing pictures, I think that this carbine is better than that. All the carbines that I have seen, that were in good condition, had a price in the $14-16,000 range. I recently saw a minty carbine at a gun show. But, at the time, I was looking at a minty, encased DWM Borchardt set with all the tools and six, non-matching magazines at the same table and I was distracted. For those of you who are curious, the Borchardt had a price tag of $18,000. Does anyone know if carbines had a combined holster/stock rig simular to the artillery rig? Big Norm

07-22-2003, 09:12 PM	#16
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Pete, you mentioned black powder in the 1902 carbine comments. My impression is that DWM always used their own high quality (for the time) smokeless powder. Fred Datig,on page 186, refers to ".42 gram Walsrode powder" that he believes was for a Borchardt style cartridge in the 1898 Swiss tests. I think this is a smokeless load. My experience with shooting black powder revolvers would lead me to doubt an automatic ould function more than a few shots with black powder. regards, heinz

07-22-2003, 09:47 PM	#17
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Sorry, Heinz... Just a poor choice of words. Should have said "gun powder"... Best Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-03-2003, 06:55 PM	#18
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	I must have missed it before, but the same 9 mm carbine (# 24477) is being sold both by the World Of Lugers as well as by Phoenix Investment Arms... WOL's price is $ 12,000.00 and PIA's price is $ 15,750.00 Is this a typical practice; for a gun owner to have two different dealers try to consignment-sell a gun ? At the same time ? I assumed a consignment sale would be an "exclusive" with one selling dealer...but may be wrong on this point... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-05-2003, 12:38 AM	#19
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Pete, somethings wrong here. The last price on the first listing on GunBroker was $14,000 plus. The reserve price was not reached. That puts WOL out. Maybe the PIA price is the reserve price on GunBroker. Too high a price for a Midwestern guy like me. Maybe the California guys can buy it.The left coast guys have all sorts of money. (HEE! HEE!) Big Norm

08-07-2003, 10:15 AM	#20
Ronald Welch User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Matthews,N.C. Posts: 39 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John I have a 1920 carbine and I would think that the 1902 carbine would have the letters GL on the rear toggle? Ron #877