Lugerman's 1907 .45 Target model

[DavidJayUden]

Several weeks ago there was a posting that included photos of the Lugerman’s current .45 Luger project, and the photo included a “target model” with a 7” barrel, to which I responded: “I’d like to shoot that one…” Several days later Eugene contacted me and informed me that indeed, that gun, their used prototype, was for sale. It was their prototype target model, a trial balloon, #43, and it had about 2000 rounds thru it already. Shortly thereafter we struck a deal that included the gun, 3 magazines, both target and checkered grips, Certificate of Authenticity, and a loading tool at the Princely sum of $6500. He wanted to replace the lanyard loop and touch up the bluing but it was pretty much ready to go since they use it for testing. Once I did the FFL and payment, he had it in the overnight mail to my FFL, and I had the gun in my hands soon afterwards. Pretty darned fast for Eugene…

Anyway, I took it to the local indoor range tonight and fired 9 groups of 5 shots each using 3 different types of round nose 230 gr. ammo; Winchester White Box, FMJ, old reloads loaded with 230 gr. Cast round nose bullets, and new Wolf steel case 230 gr. FMJ. No cleaning either before or in between groups.

The first groups were fired at 15 yards with the barrel resting on a shooting bag as I knelt behind it, the groups ranging from 3-4”, mostly in strings. All printed low and left, while my sights were level front and rear and held at 6 o’clock on the 3” black dots. Moving the target back to the wall at 25 yards, the groups opened up to 5-6” with an occasional flyer that was entirely my own doing. Low and left. I then moved the target up to 10 yards and shot from an offhand standing position, and was able to squeeze them down to 2-3”, low and left.

But the point here is that the gun shot exactly as it should, and while some groups were better than the others, no one ammo outshined the others, at least not with me at the trigger. No doubt the groups could be cut in half with an experienced target shooter.

The problems I encountered are as follows: Sometimes, but not always, I had to press the mag. catch button in to insert the mag. But not always. There were 2 failure to feed instances, one with the White Box ammo where the extractor either slipped off or never grabbed the rim and the case was left in the chamber. Once I pulled the loaded mag. out and snapped the toggle shut, it easily extracted the spent round. The other instance was when the action cycled and closed on an empty case while loading from the magazine (stove-piped). That was one of my 1980’s reloads, so I’m blaming it on low pressure. The last issue was with the trigger, normally a heavenly trigger-pull, occasionally it would set the sear then wait for addl. pressure before it broke and fired. The sear bar and sear bar spring would pop out as it should, but then there would be a tiny glitch before additional pressure caused it to fire. Sort of like a single stage trigger becoming a 2 stage trigger.

Although my 3 magazines include 2 alloy bases and one wood, Eugene suggests using the alloy bases for shooting and the wood base for looking. Those magazine springs are strong, and a loading tool is necessary after 2 or 3 rounds, and I agree that the wood is probably not up to that kind of pressure. Not at $400 per pop.

Cleaning the gun afterwards I noticed that it disassembled and appeared exactly like any other Luger. I’ll venture that the Interarms Mausers were much further from the original patterns than is Eugene’s 1907. I did encounter 2 issues, one being that the short pin that holds the breechblock to the forward toggle link was loose enough to slip part way out once removed from the barrel extension. Not fall completely out but looser than what I’m used to. Secondly, I was unable to turn the firing pin inside of the breech block in order to remove it. Generally you push them in then turn 90 degrees, but this one didn’t turn much beyond 20 degrees, and I wasn’t about to force it. (No owner’s manual and probably no YouTube videos. Yet.). Otherwise field stripping it was totally the same as with any other P08 that I have ever owned.

Early impressions? Too expensive for a daily shooter but a fine pistol to be sure. Very pleasant to shoot. Comparing it to a P08 is sort of akin to shooting your 1911 Officer model, then picking up a long-slide .45. The sights are typical Luger sights and probably better for 18 year old eyes than my 1955 models. Accuracy is good, the gun certainly shoots better than I do. It does not seem finicky about ammo, but I haven’t yet tried my favorite 200 gr. SWC loads. And it does get LOTS of attention at the range.

So I’ll keep it, at least until someone with enough money who wants it worse comes along.

Follow-up notes: Shared my experiences with Eugene and he indicated that the trigger and loose toggle pin could be fixed whenever I sent it back. He mentioned that they had a target shooter run it and his groups were smaller than were mine. Thanks… And he’s skeptical about my SWC loads feeding well in his Luger. Also he reiterated that my gun was their prototype and not originally intended for sale, so if you are waiting for your .45 don’t call Eugene and chew on his leg because you haven’t gotten your gun yet.

[Edward Tinker]

David, that is great! Your write up is excellent and I am afraid folks will still be itching for their 1907!



Ed

[LugerMan.com]

Note on Firing pin retainer,
we have made a breach block notch a bit dipper then original 9mm Luger, just to have a bit more meat at the back ,
where breach block usually fail,

As a result you need to push a bit deeper on to the retainer before it will turn.

[DonVoigt]

David, thanks much for the info and pictures , esp. the targets.

Bringing the POI to POA will be an easy fix, I'd do it after you settle on a load/round you like best and then let Eugene touch up the blue as necessary when/if you send it back.

As to a manual, sounds like a PO8 model will suffice! But maybe you can work a deal with Eugene to write on for the .45 for him. Maybe for another magazine!

I have two or three P08s in which the pin you mention will just "fall" out, all a matter of tolerances - but a little aggravating if it hits the floor, rolls, and "hides" from you.

Ed,
You're correct, now I want mine to play with- Hopefully Santa will deliver before Christmas! this year.

Eugene,
Nice work, as I have said before.
Any update on the Guns and Ammo article?
I'm thinking maybe I should ask for one wood and one metal base mag with mine!

[LugerMan.com]

Prototype has been with Guns and Ammo for over 2 month, pushing 3 soon.

Initially Patrick Sweeney responded quickly and shared his test results, that looked good.

He did not go in to much detail, but overall tone was positive.

We have waited for some time to hear from Patrick Sweeney after that.

He was not sure when the article will make it over to the presses.

Last week he told us that the article already in print, and will show up in February issue, that will hit the stands in first weeks of 2018.

We still waiting for our prototype #4 to show up at the door step,
so we can send it out for the first 12 buyers for torture test.

[lugerholsterrepair]

David, Thanks for an excellent writeup! One question..is the loading tool shown made by Eugene and is it specific to loading the .45 magazine?

[DavidJayUden]

I'm sure that it is a Eugene product, but I should let him clarify. I will say that it was my best friend at the shooting range yesterday...
dju

[LugerMan.com]

First attempt at loading tool was trying to modify the original size tools.

That proven to be impractical for several reasons:

1. Finger rest proven to be uncomfortable for stronger spring,
so the new tool has a bigger finger rest

2. Magazine bends were different and original size ears were shorter then needed to be supported by the magazine bend.
New tool has wide and longer ears.

3. Magazine base circles are bigger to stay proportionally correct to
the magazine, as a result they were interfering with the bottom of the tool when loading last round.
We have shortened the tail of the tool to avoid that.

New tool was manufactured from a solid block of steel 4140 at 35RC

What you see provided with the Target Model is a result of that effort.

Total of 50 tools were manufactured at the same time.

We try to pay attention to small details like that to provide a pleasant user experience to the Luger 45 shooters.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Lugerman's 1907 .45 Target model

Why is it called the '1907 target model'???

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Why is it called the '1907 target model'???

The .45 is a copy of the 1907 trials model luger; which had a 5 or 5.5" bbl. Lugerman's "target" model simply has a longer barrel, 7" IIRC. Since Eugene made it, I guess he can market it as whatever, and chose "target".

The proto type has finger groove "target" grips also, but they could be exchanged of course.

[DavidJayUden]

OK, what should it be called?
dju

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

OK, what should it be called?
dju

You can call it anything you want! It's yours!

I would have called it something official-sounding, or maybe something indicating Eugene's ongoing business, or his single-minded passion, or even something that the original factory may have called it...Something like "Pre-Production Target Prototype Number 43"...

Vorproduktion Ziel Prototyp Nummer dreiundvierzig

But the name you chose is fine.Consider me envious.

[DavidJayUden]

Actually, Lugerman let it slip that they will soon offer a Navy type rear toggle link, so then I would have to change my model designation to 1907 Navy.
But I'm broke now anyway...
dju

[LugerMan.com]

What I actually let slip is :

A target model toggle that will look simular to navy toggle.

A while back I was approached by a competition shooter about a target style toggle, and that gave me an idea...

Because we are trying to expend the Luger 45 demographic to competition and target shooters and sights been the weak point for a luger ...

We came up with a target style rear toggle. It will look simular to Navy toggle profile, but it will have a fine adjustment , left to right and top to bottom, simular to S&W revolvers rear sight setup.

Hope to have a prototype done in a month ...

[lugerholsterrepair]

But I'm broke now anyway...David, yes, I am considering have this tattooed on my body somewhere..But I'm broke now anyway...I need to learn to sell as well as I learned to buy..Nice pistol though!

Maybe if Eugene make this adjustable sight it could be bought separately and added to your pistol?

Marine Vorproduktion Ziel Prototyp Nummer dreiundvierzig

[DavidJayUden]

Maybe if Eugene make this adjustable sight it could be bought separately and added to your pistol?

Jerry;
Actually, I'm thinking that Eugene will need someone to test out his prototype Navy/Target style rear toggle link...
I just hope it has a wider V so that I can see what I'm doing.

dju

[DavidJayUden]

I did take the gun to the range to shoot it and share it with friends last evening. Perfect function, no failures to feed, etc, same point of impact. Fired about 30 rounds of 230 gr. RN ball ammo, probably older military mfg.
I tried to get the firing pin out again, and once again, no luck. I just can't seem to find the groove to allow the pin to turn 90 degrees in the breech block.
dju

[LugerMan.com]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

... I just hope it has a wider V so that I can see what I'm doing.
dju

I was planing to make modern square cut rear notch and square cut front sight as well.

[LugerMan.com]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

... I just can't seem to find the groove to allow the pin to turn 90 degrees in the breech block.
dju

If I did not take it out at least 50 times I'd be worried,
But I did, so I do not.

Just push it down a bit harder , tap it a bit if you have to ,

then using right size head screwdriver, turn it counterclockwithe

while leaning in to a screw driver a bit to keep it in the grove.

Do not worry if you brake it, we will send you a new one ...

I guess that's the difference of having one $6500 hand gun vs having 50 of them in the safe,

We do not worry about little thing , we just make new once ...

[LugerMan.com]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

I did take the gun to the range to shoot it and share it with friends last evening. Perfect function, no failures to feed, etc, same point of impact.
dju

More info if you can ...

What ammo was used, how meany rounds ....

It is a prototype after all, keep testing ...