Confusing commercial on gunbroker

Robert in NC · 01-11-2018, 04:00 PM

Here's a Luger being sold as commercial that has me a bit confused.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/736390302

I don't see any proof marks at all. There is the serial number stamped on the frame above the side plate. The placement of the number on the take down lever and side plate are not correct for commercial, or am I mistaken?

It looks clean, but doesn't seem to be a commercial to me. Or have the usual military marks either. I'd appreciate it if someone could set me straight.

DonVoigt · 01-11-2018, 04:15 PM

Yes, confusing- I can't tell what it is either- but in great shape, doesn't look refinished to me.

John Sabato · 01-18-2018, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Yes, confusing- I can't tell what it is either- but in great shape, doesn't look refinished to me.

Don,

The finish does look great, however, since there is holster wear on the front edges of the receiver, and none apparently on the barrel, I would have to side with the "refinished' crowd on this question.
Also the DWM on the toggle link seems to be rather light, as if that portion of the link were "cleaned" aggressively prior to a refinish.

Just my $0.02, spend it wisely...

Pistol · 01-11-2018, 05:26 PM

DG's database shows the commercial alphabets started with an i suffix. This one has a c suffix and, has serial number placement consistent with a military gun. I don't see any C/N marks. However, I can not see the breach block proof. Maybe scrubbed with the other military stamps. Serial number range is incorrect for a 1908 or 1913/1914 commercial , plus it has a stock lug.

Maybe it was a 1914 military with a replacement barrel since it lacks a serial number on the underside. The barrel also has what appears to be an M or W stamp.

Buy why would someone scrub the date and military markings?

mrerick · 01-11-2018, 06:53 PM

Looks like a refinished possibly renumbered military pistol.

The SN area of the frame has possibly been scrubbed and renumbered. The grind marks give this away, as does the front of the receiver being slightly proud of the frame.

The right front of the receiver where the military proofs were has also been scrubbed and redone. You can see the different tone of the finish in one of the pictures. I'd need to measure and see other profiles to be sure.

Whom ever did the work did a reasonably good job.

Norme · 01-11-2018, 07:15 PM

I'm just a simple country boy but I don't understand why anyone would fake a Commercial Luger in .30 cal and lavish a beautiful and expensive refinish job on it as well. No matter what the original gun was, it would have been worth more. Also, the seller Richard Crosier, is very far from being a simple country boy.
Norm

Pistol · 01-11-2018, 07:51 PM

That is what is odd. Why ruin a good military luger to fake a .30? Need better photo of the breech mark.

Pistol · 01-13-2018, 04:44 PM

Maybe it is special commercial like the sellers recent Black Widow that sold for over $6k.

cirelaw · 01-14-2018, 05:36 PM

This does no look military, I could be wrong!! Eric

k38 · 01-17-2018, 09:54 PM

I'm far from an expert on Lugers, but this seller's guns--not just Lugers-- often go for astonishing prices, for reasons I do not fully understand.

DonVoigt · 01-17-2018, 10:50 PM

I don't see anything that says "refinish"; what are you guys seeing that makes you think it is?
Mark? Norm?

Edward Tinker · 01-17-2018, 11:58 PM

The rear portion of the receiver, the ears area I call it, is extremely clean.

I think it was a military that was refurbished for sale after WWI in the commercial market, perhaps DWM or another company

DonVoigt · 01-18-2018, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

The rear portion of the receiver, the ears area I call it, is extremely clean.

I think it was a military that was refurbished for sale after WWI in the commercial market, perhaps DWM or another company

Yes the ears are nice, but the edges and normal areas show wear, and consistent wear patterns - from the front sight/muzzle to the edges of the rear ears.

Could have been rebarreled and refinished in the 20's and look that way.

Reckon "they" removed the date? First Issue DWMs only reached the "b" block.

Still confusing.

DonVoigt · 01-18-2018, 01:21 PM

Thanks John,
The uniform wear and the small pin in the toggle knob still in the white, just maybe hide what must have been an old and excellent job.

01-11-2018, 04:00 PM	#1
Robert in NC User Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: North Carolina Posts: 32 Thanks: 32 Thanked 22 Times in 11 Posts	Confusing commercial on gunbroker Here's a Luger being sold as commercial that has me a bit confused. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/736390302 I don't see any proof marks at all. There is the serial number stamped on the frame above the side plate. The placement of the number on the take down lever and side plate are not correct for commercial, or am I mistaken? It looks clean, but doesn't seem to be a commercial to me. Or have the usual military marks either. I'd appreciate it if someone could set me straight.

01-11-2018, 04:15 PM	#2
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Yes, confusing- I can't tell what it is either- but in great shape, doesn't look refinished to me. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

01-11-2018, 06:53 PM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Looks like a refinished possibly renumbered military pistol. The SN area of the frame has possibly been scrubbed and renumbered. The grind marks give this away, as does the front of the receiver being slightly proud of the frame. The right front of the receiver where the military proofs were has also been scrubbed and redone. You can see the different tone of the finish in one of the pictures. I'd need to measure and see other profiles to be sure. Whom ever did the work did a reasonably good job. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

01-14-2018, 05:36 PM	#9
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Twenty Proof This does no look military, I could be wrong!! Eric Attached Thumbnails

01-17-2018, 10:50 PM	#11
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	I don't see anything that says "refinish"; what are you guys seeing that makes you think it is? Mark? Norm? __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

01-11-2018, 05:26 PM	#4
Pistol User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: TN Posts: 428 Thanks: 448 Thanked 220 Times in 99 Posts	DG's database shows the commercial alphabets started with an i suffix. This one has a c suffix and, has serial number placement consistent with a military gun. I don't see any C/N marks. However, I can not see the breach block proof. Maybe scrubbed with the other military stamps. Serial number range is incorrect for a 1908 or 1913/1914 commercial , plus it has a stock lug. Maybe it was a 1914 military with a replacement barrel since it lacks a serial number on the underside. The barrel also has what appears to be an M or W stamp. Buy why would someone scrub the date and military markings?

01-11-2018, 07:15 PM	#6
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	I'm just a simple country boy but I don't understand why anyone would fake a Commercial Luger in .30 cal and lavish a beautiful and expensive refinish job on it as well. No matter what the original gun was, it would have been worth more. Also, the seller Richard Crosier, is very far from being a simple country boy. Norm

01-11-2018, 07:51 PM	#7
Pistol User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: TN Posts: 428 Thanks: 448 Thanked 220 Times in 99 Posts	That is what is odd. Why ruin a good military luger to fake a .30? Need better photo of the breech mark.

01-13-2018, 04:44 PM	#8
Pistol User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: TN Posts: 428 Thanks: 448 Thanked 220 Times in 99 Posts	Maybe it is special commercial like the sellers recent Black Widow that sold for over $6k.

01-17-2018, 09:54 PM	#10
k38 User Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 36 Thanks: 16 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	I'm far from an expert on Lugers, but this seller's guns--not just Lugers-- often go for astonishing prices, for reasons I do not fully understand.

01-17-2018, 11:58 PM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	The rear portion of the receiver, the ears area I call it, is extremely clean. I think it was a military that was refurbished for sale after WWI in the commercial market, perhaps DWM or another company

01-18-2018, 01:21 PM	#14
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Thanks John, The uniform wear and the small pin in the toggle knob still in the white, just maybe hide what must have been an old and excellent job. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie