Erma l pistols

[wgc06]

Please advise the difference between Erma models KGP69 and KGP68A. Also, are there any other models and what are their differences?
Thanks,
Wally

[ithacaartist]

La-22, a .22 caliber toggle pistol styled to look like the P.08, dimensions roughly the same, weight perhaps a tad more. The entire pistol, save barrel liner, breech block, and internals, is cast Zamak, an alloy of zinc, aluminum, magnesium, and copper--in the category called "pot metal." These pistols made their debut in 1964 and sold for around fifty bucks.

Ep-22 is the "improved design" of the former, with different firing and safety systems. These became available around 1966. I'm pretty sure production overlapped, but around that time, the tooling for producing the La-22 was apparently sold to a Spanish company who made the Lur.

The Et-22 is basically an Ep-22 with an 11 3/4" barrel and hardwood fore-stock. It is most similar in profile to the Luger Carbine, but Erma called it the "Marine Model."

In 1968 the KGP 68 was introduced. For import to the U.S., a magazine safety system was added ad the model sold here is the KGP 68A. They were chambered in .32 auto and .380, and the entire pistol is a more faithful P.08 look-alike, but scaled down to perhaps 70-75% of the real Luger. 3 1/2" and 4" barrels appear on both models. The factory made plastic grips with a thumb shelf on the left, and machine-checkered walnut grips with borders. Jay Scott made their own version of checkered walnut for them, which look more like Swiss grips with that style border.

The KGP 69 is the .22 version of this series, scaled at around 80%. Ironic that the more powerful calibers were in the smaller gun... This one came out, of course, in 1969

The KGP series, metallurgically speaking, is sort of the opposite of the earlier pistols. Their grip frames and triggers are the only cast zinc alloy components cast, and everything else is steel.

The KGP pistols were bought, branded, and distributed by Beeman, starting in the 80s. These had extra/different features such as artisan rosewood grips, which they installed after removing the original factory plastic ones. My Beeman P-08 (not to be confused with P.08) also has an adjustable travel limiter behind the trigger, and grip screws with flat instead of domed tops. This is the .22. The KGP 68As were called MP-08.

If you happen to like them, they're becoming increasingly collectible. But be forewarned, they're not necessarily very dependable in function. The early ones are ammo and mag sensitive, and the later ones have a well-deserved reputation for throwing their extractors.

Replacement parts for them can be problematic to obtain. It seems attrition has ultimately taken its toll on stateside availability, with spares of many parts basically just used up. But reproduction parts are beginning to show up, so all hope is not lost. There's a guy on eBay selling repro KGP 68A firing pins in stainless and steel, and I have had runs of KGP extractors made, which I sell on Gunbroker, along with lots of other parts for all models of Erma toggle pistols.

Erma started back in the 20s. they made .22 caliber conversion kits for training with a P.08 of 98K. The action for the Luger kits was the core of the "Old Model," their .22 semi-auto target pistol from post-war 50s. Erma made more different models than I can name in .22, 25 semi-autos, and revolvers of many calibers, and long guns. The EM 1 is the M1 carbine repro in .22, and I suspect my Iver Johnson M1 Carbine in .30 Carbine was made by them, too. The Model 72 is the Ithaca branded Erma .22 lever action repeating saddle gun, whereas, Ithaca's domestically produced M 49 lever .22 was a single-shot. The predominant feature of guns made by Erma-Werke is their cast zinc alloy frames of all post-war models produced. Saved time, labor, so they could sell for less.

But don't take my word for it! A book about Erma-Werke history and production will be coming out, authored by Holger Schlemeir of Belguim, with an English version to follow.

[Eugen]

Wally, Ithacaartist (Dave) provided you with a most detailed answer. He is one of this forums most knowledgeable experts and parts vendors on the ERMA Lugers. He was exceptionally helpful to me and offers fair pricing and prompt deliver on parts, mags, grips.

Lastly, I want to say that I really enjoy my 7,65mm ERMA. It's a delightful shooter. Get one!