Topic Creep: Found this 9mm Luger ammo vs 9mm

[Kyrie]

Let's do a little different approach to that silly article entitled "What Is The Difference Between 9mm And 9mm Luger Ammo?"
( http://thebigdeer.com/what-is-the-di...mm-luger-ammo/ ).

There are so many different cartridges with "9 mm" in the cartridge name that I tend to just tune out anyone who references "9 mm ammunition".

But let's have some fun.

What "9 mm" cartridges have you fired, and in what firearm?

What "9 mm" cartridges have you wanted to shoot, but have never had the opportunity to do so?

I'll start...

Fired:

Obviously, 9 mm Parabellum (aka 9 mm Luger, 9x19); various firearms

9 mm Bergmann (aka 9x23 Largo); Bergmann–Bayard model 1910, various Spanish handguns, Destroyer carbine.

9 mm Ultra (aka 9 mm Police); Walther PP

9 mm Makarov (aka 9mmM); Makarov, Hungarian PA 63 and SMC (both pistols sold under various other names)

9 mm Steyr (AKA 9x22.5 Steyr); Steyr model 1912

9 mm Browning Short (aka .380 ACP, 9 mm Corto, 9 mm Kurz, etc.); various handguns

9 mm Browning Long; FN pistol, been so long I only faintly recall – Model 1903?

Never fired but wanted to:

9 mm Mauser Export (aka 9x25 Mauser); desired firearms include Mauser C96 and Steyr-Solothurn MP.34. As an aside, I'd also have had a good time firing an MP.34 in 7.65 Parabellum.

And another category: never fired, not interested:

9x21, 9x25 Dillion, 9 mm Winchester Magnum, 9 mm Glisenti, 9 mm Federal, 9 mm Japanese

Who's next?

[mrerick]

I have two 9mm Makarov handguns. A Polish P.64 and a Czech vz.82 / CZ-83. The Czech pistol has a polygonal rifled barrel.

[DonVoigt]

This an instance when use of the "European" descriptor makes good sense;
9 x 25
9x23
9x21
9x19
9x18
9x17
etc, with the addition of rimless, or semi-rimmed, or rimmed.
9MM Japanese is a rimmed or "flanged" cartridge.

And since the ubiquitous .38 special is actually a 9mm along with the .357 magnum- the list can go on, and on!

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

This an instance when use of the "European" descriptor makes good sense;
9 x 25
9x23
9x21
9x19
9x18
9x17
etc, with the addition of rimless, or semi-rimmed, or rimmed.
9MM Japanese is a rimmed or "flanged" cartridge.

And since the ubiquitous .38 special is actually a 9mm along with the .357 magnum- the list can go on, and on!

This is actually an interesting thread creep on the thread creep.

If we move away from the criteria of "has 9 mm in the cartridge name" to "is a cartridge with a 9 mm diameter bullet" the lists change.

Assuming, for the sake of the thread, that the 9 mm Luger bullet is our baseline then a 9 mm bullet would have a true bullet diameter of .355 inch (+/- .001 inch).

That definition would exclude the .38 Special (and the .357 Magnum derivative) since the .38 Special bullet is .357 (+/- .001). It would also exclude the 9x18 Makarov, as that bullet is actually 9.3 mm (.363 inch).

OTOH, it would let us add the .38 ACP (and the .38 Super derivative) as the .38 ACP actually uses a bullet of .355 (+/- .001). We could also add the .357 Sig, as it also uses a .355 bullet.

[DonVoigt]

Let's just stretch the arbitrary +/- 0.001 to +/-0.002, to be more inclusive and recognize that nominal 9mm or .355 or .357 bullets will work just fine in any of them, and keep the Makarov too, 'cause .363 is close enough for Russian work.

Of course someone with the time could digress and discuss the potential range of maximum and minimum bore/land diameters and what to do about Metford or polygonal rifling measurement; then, add to that the practical or observed range of bulk manufactured nominal 9mm bullets themselves.

This thread could go on forever and not reach any conclusion, just more parameters to measure and questions.

[Kyrie]

Ah, Don,

This thread wasn't about reaching conclusions, it was about having fun with all the different things lurking under "9 mm ammunition" :-)

Kyrie

[DonVoigt]

Well, at least we have punched enough holes in the original referenced article to conclude that it as at best inaccurate and misleading.

[gunbugs]

And... 9x57...

[Zorba]

If you're gonna be that loose, might as well include the .38 S&W with a bullet diameter of .361.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Zorba

If you're gonna be that loose, might as well include the .38 S&W with a bullet diameter of .361.

OK, by me!

[Robert in NC]

Three cartridges with "9 mm" in the name:

9 x 19 (9 mm Parabellum, 9 mm Luger) Various weapons
9 x 18 (9 mm Makarov) Polish P64
9 x 17 (9 mm kurz, 9 mm short, .380ACP) Various weapons

Of course if you simply go by NAME alone, ignoring that there are different names for the same cartridge:

9 x 19 mm
9 mm Parabellum
9 mm Luger
9 x 18 mm
9 mm Makarov
9 x 17 mm
9 mm kurz
9 mm Browning
9 mm short
9 mm corto

[DavidJayUden]

Don't the Italians have to punch out 9mm to a longer case length, and if so what is that cartridge called?
dju

[Patrick Sweeney]

9x21

Also, don't forget the 9mm Federal. Trying to bring order to cartridge naming will drive you to drink.

[mrerick]

The Italians require 9 x 21mm cartridges. Regular 9mm Luger is 9x19mm.

It's known as "9mm IMI" or "9mm Italian", and loaded to the standard 9mm Luger level, but develops less power because of the larger case volume, making it acceptable as a non-military caliber there.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by mrerick

The Italians require 9 x 21mm cartridges. Regular 9mm Luger is 9x19mm.

It's known as "9mm IMI" or "9mm Italian", and loaded to the standard 9mm Luger level, but develops less power because of the larger case volume, making it acceptable as a non-military caliber there.

Nope. Exact same power. Even though the case is longer they have the same OAL, case volume is the same. One of the developers of the cartridge happens to be living in Portugal now and is a friend of mine. The problem was not the power but the fact it was a military round.