1921

Roadster 02 · 02-15-2019, 06:17 PM

Trying to identify from 3 pics a DWM dated 1921, with no stock lug. Pics show no markings other than last two of serial.

Neil Young · 02-15-2019, 06:41 PM

I know of no DWM 1921 Luger that is not equipped with a stock lug.

HerrKaiser · 02-15-2019, 07:03 PM

Could a DWM first issue pistol without a stock lug have been re-worked and gotten a property mark in 1921 under the Weimar government?

George Anderson · 02-15-2019, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerrKaiser

Could a DWM first issue pistol without a stock lug have been re-worked and gotten a property mark in 1921 under the Weimar government?

A possibility.

DonVoigt · 02-15-2019, 08:57 PM

More likely it is just mismatched and/or had the lug removed.

Norme · 02-15-2019, 09:19 PM

I own P08 Navy #39 (a very rare gun, one of only 150 made) which entered Imperial Navy service in 1913. It was stamped 1921 when it continued on in the Weimar Navy. It has no stock lug.
Norm

HerrKaiser · 02-15-2019, 09:15 PM

Tough to say without seeing the pictures. Just trying to be an optimist.

Roadster 02 · 02-16-2019, 09:46 PM

What model would it be if the stock lug had been ground off?

Edward Tinker · 02-16-2019, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadster 02

What model would it be if the stock lug had been ground off?

a 1908 or the like model with a ground off stock lug - with a few examples of HP (police) that were ground off by the unit.

DonVoigt · 02-16-2019, 10:45 PM

DWM made commercial and military P08 pistols in 1921; could be either.

Roadster 02 · 02-17-2019, 12:43 AM

Finally got some better pics from the owner. DonVoigt you guessed it. The stock lug has been ground off of the pistol, and the ground down area is bare metal. Also all the numbers do not match. Price is 1,250 LOL I was hoping it was an example like Norme showed, but no such luck.
All who responded, thanks for the info.

mrerick · 02-17-2019, 10:27 AM

I wonder if the Navy "1921" used as a property mark was a (deliberate?) misinterpretation of the Weimar property marking order? That or were almost all the ones processed and marked for Weimar ownership done in 1920.

It's the only example I'm aware of where "1921" was used as a property mark instead of a production date by DWM.

I have two military DWM pistols dated 1921. One is a VoPo rework (never re-issued) and the other is this one, with two WaA4 dove style Reichsadler acceptance marks. These dates are closer to the breech block over the chamber than the property marks are, and are machine die applied instead of being more inconsistently stamped.

According to Sturgess (red book page 533), DMW continued to make military and police pistols until the Versailles IMKK commission gained access to the Charlottenburg Berlin factory in mid 1921 about the middle of the "b" block of production. They had produced 40-50,000 military and police Lugers to that point in the no suffix, "a" and middle "b" blocks.

After than a number of smaller scale concealment efforts took place producing some unusual pistols from DWM as authorized production shifted to Simson in Suhl.

DonVoigt · 02-17-2019, 02:43 PM

I have read/seen reports or pictures of a few other "1921" property markings; in any bureaucracy
someone never gets the memo!

Perhaps even "stranger" are the 1921 dated lugers with an added "1920" property marking.

See the picture below.

I've bid on a couple 1920 dated pistols with the added 1920 property stamp, but "missed" them. How about that for redundancy, a 1920/1920 !

Don M · 02-17-2019, 07:08 PM

Apparently, the French occupation forces in the city of Wiesbaden and parts of Hessen following the war required the police to remove the stock lugs of P08s, presumably to prevent their use as carbines. See http://www.historywritinsteel.com/New_Insights.html Item 11 and HWIS Chapter 16.

02-15-2019, 06:17 PM	#1
Roadster 02 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Rocky Mountain High Posts: 313 Thanks: 173 Thanked 252 Times in 87 Posts	1921 Trying to identify from 3 pics a DWM dated 1921, with no stock lug. Pics show no markings other than last two of serial.

02-15-2019, 06:41 PM	#2
Neil Young Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Scottsboro, Alabama Posts: 546 Thanks: 559 Thanked 442 Times in 168 Posts	I know of no DWM 1921 Luger that is not equipped with a stock lug. __________________ Neil The hurrier I go the behinder I get. Sometimes it takes me all day to get nothing done.

02-15-2019, 08:57 PM	#5
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	More likely it is just mismatched and/or had the lug removed. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

02-15-2019, 09:19 PM	#6
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	I own P08 Navy #39 (a very rare gun, one of only 150 made) which entered Imperial Navy service in 1913. It was stamped 1921 when it continued on in the Weimar Navy. It has no stock lug. Norm Attached Thumbnails

02-15-2019, 09:15 PM	#7
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	Tough to say without seeing the pictures. Just trying to be an optimist. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

02-15-2019, 07:03 PM	#3
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	Could a DWM first issue pistol without a stock lug have been re-worked and gotten a property mark in 1921 under the Weimar government? __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

02-16-2019, 09:46 PM	#8
Roadster 02 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Rocky Mountain High Posts: 313 Thanks: 173 Thanked 252 Times in 87 Posts	What model would it be if the stock lug had been ground off?

02-16-2019, 10:45 PM	#10
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	DWM made commercial and military P08 pistols in 1921; could be either. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

02-17-2019, 12:43 AM	#11
Roadster 02 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Rocky Mountain High Posts: 313 Thanks: 173 Thanked 252 Times in 87 Posts	Finally got some better pics from the owner. DonVoigt you guessed it. The stock lug has been ground off of the pistol, and the ground down area is bare metal. Also all the numbers do not match. Price is 1,250 LOL I was hoping it was an example like Norme showed, but no such luck. All who responded, thanks for the info.

02-17-2019, 10:27 AM	#12
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	I wonder if the Navy "1921" used as a property mark was a (deliberate?) misinterpretation of the Weimar property marking order? That or were almost all the ones processed and marked for Weimar ownership done in 1920. It's the only example I'm aware of where "1921" was used as a property mark instead of a production date by DWM. I have two military DWM pistols dated 1921. One is a VoPo rework (never re-issued) and the other is this one, with two WaA4 dove style Reichsadler acceptance marks. These dates are closer to the breech block over the chamber than the property marks are, and are machine die applied instead of being more inconsistently stamped. According to Sturgess (red book page 533), DMW continued to make military and police pistols until the Versailles IMKK commission gained access to the Charlottenburg Berlin factory in mid 1921 about the middle of the "b" block of production. They had produced 40-50,000 military and police Lugers to that point in the no suffix, "a" and middle "b" blocks. After than a number of smaller scale concealment efforts took place producing some unusual pistols from DWM as authorized production shifted to Simson in Suhl. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

02-17-2019, 02:43 PM	#13
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	I have read/seen reports or pictures of a few other "1921" property markings; in any bureaucracy someone never gets the memo! Perhaps even "stranger" are the 1921 dated lugers with an added "1920" property marking. See the picture below. I've bid on a couple 1920 dated pistols with the added 1920 property stamp, but "missed" them. How about that for redundancy, a 1920/1920 ! Attached Thumbnails __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

02-17-2019, 07:08 PM	#14
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Apparently, the French occupation forces in the city of Wiesbaden and parts of Hessen following the war required the police to remove the stock lugs of P08s, presumably to prevent their use as carbines. See http://www.historywritinsteel.com/New_Insights.html Item 11 and HWIS Chapter 16. __________________ Regards, Don [email protected] Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com