Russian capture??

Roadster 02 · 03-29-2019, 06:22 PM

Just bought this Luger and was unsure if this is a RC gun or just a parts gun. Barrel has been replaced and has a crown N proof mark, and import mark. Cant figure out what Luger the barrel was originally on. Numbers don't all match and some of them are in electro pencil. Came with two Thalmann mags serialed to the gun. Toggle and receiver is 1938 S/42. Frame is 9936i. Top and back of toggle has had the original numbers ground out and restamped with 36. I don't know if this was something the RC rebuild did or if this is an attempt by someone here in the US to make the gun "matching". Last question, how much would this pistol be worth? Thanks.

DonVoigt · 03-29-2019, 08:33 PM

It is an East German rework, or Vopo luger.
The barrel is likely a new made EG barrel installed at time of rework.

Since you just bought it, why not tell us what it was worth?

mrerick · 03-29-2019, 08:42 PM

The grips are typical VoPo (Russian Capture to East German Volkespolezei) bullseye trips.

The importer was likely the "Cross Roads Gun Shop" "ECCSA" in Pennsauken, New Jersey. They imported quite a few East German / Russian Capture Lugers back in the 1980's. They have been long closed.

The barrel change, and rest of the work was either done before it was imported, or the importer assembled guns from parts. It would really be hard to tell which.

The Frame, (with no "Mauser Hump") probably is from an earlier Mauser Luger made in early 1937 or earlier.

If it functions properly, it would be valued as a Shooter, and probably around $1000.

Roadster 02 · 03-29-2019, 10:13 PM

The barrel crown over N stamping has me baffled, I thought the only place that stamp was used was on mostly commercial receivers, not barrels. I really wanted someone with better Luger knowledge than me to say what they thought the value was before I biased an opinion with what I paid. I gave $450 for this Luger, the two mags, and an unmarked loading tool.

DonVoigt · 03-29-2019, 10:27 PM

That particular crown/N is the one used by East Germany; it is not the same as the "other" crown/N you are used to seeing on DWM commercial lugers(both receiver and barrels).

There are way too many variables in luger pricing to give you a "value", you got a deal at $450 for sure. On some venues the selling price may have been 2x that; which only demonstrates that any "value" idea - has no value. JMHO.

sheepherder · 03-29-2019, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadster 02

I gave $450 for this Luger, the two mags, and an unmarked loading tool.

You got a terrific deal. It's easily worth twice that.

Um...Are there more where you bought it???

Sergio Natali · 03-30-2019, 06:58 AM

For $450 you definitely got a bargain, FWIK if there are no X or no other markings I don't think that is a RC.

Roadster 02 · 03-30-2019, 09:22 AM

No others, it was a sale from armslist. I kind of thought that was an X below the serial number and letter i on the frame.

sheepherder · 03-30-2019, 10:00 AM

There is an 'X' on the sear bar.

DonVoigt · 03-30-2019, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

There is an 'X' on the sear bar.

I believe that "x" is there to cancel the old number, as it is placed "on top" and then the sear bar renumbered.

Canceled Vopo markings are seen just to the right of the serial number on the left chamber.

The RC "X" is usually on the left side of the chamber(and larger, and not squished); though there may be a circled X on the front of this frame, which I can almost see in one of the pictures.

Dwight Gruber · 03-30-2019, 11:14 AM

The encircled X on the front of the frame would be there to cancel the letter suffix.

--Dwight

Roadster 02 · 03-30-2019, 11:32 AM

It also looks like some mark was canceled out to the right of the serial on the left side of the receiver. So I guess what I am reading is that this isn't a Russian Capture, it is a VOPO put together correct?

DonVoigt · 03-30-2019, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadster 02

It also looks like some mark was canceled out to the right of the serial on the left side of the receiver. So I guess what I am reading is that this isn't a Russian Capture, it is a VOPO put together correct?

"Canceled Vopo markings are seen just to the right of the serial number on the left chamber."

From my post above.

Roadster 02 · 03-30-2019, 02:48 PM

Yeah, I did not read post 10 correctly, or my "understander" was out of service before I wrote post 12. I noticed my error after, but was hoping you didn't see it. No such luck. Sharp eyes.

So is it normal on these pistols to find the Vopo markings canceled out, and also electro penciled numbers put in place of Xed out stamped numbers, or was this done by some "bubba"?

Vlim · 03-30-2019, 04:50 PM

That was done to obscure the East German provenance.

It's a totally correct VoPo.

Roadster 02 · 03-30-2019, 07:24 PM

Thanks to all who responded.

Lugerdoc · 03-30-2019, 07:43 PM

I was selling these DDR reworked PO8s back in the 80s & 90s, when I could purchase them in volume @$500 each, so $1K today would be about top dollar. TH

Roadster 02 · 03-30-2019, 10:08 PM

I guess I got a good deal. Even a blind squirrel picks up a few acorns now and then.

HerrKaiser · 03-30-2019, 10:25 PM

Deutsche Demokratische Republik. Otherwise known as the German Democratic Republic (GDR) or simply East Germany.

RDS · 04-01-2019, 04:03 PM

Mrerick is correct that Crossroads Gun Shop in Pennsauken NJ was the importer. The last batch of VoPo Lugers Crossroads attempted to import was seized by US Customs. I will not go into the details as to why they were seized. The Lugers in question sat in a US Customs bonded warehouse for over 5 years. At the Crossroads bankruptcy hearing the Lugers in question were sold to SARCO in Stirling NJ. The SARCO import stamp was hand stamped to the bottom of the barrel as SARCO was technically the importer. The Lugers were packed in heavy vacuumed sealed plastic bag along with two mags by the GDR. All were "dipped blued" before being vacuumed packed. Unfortunately some were not properly rinsed and oiled before being vacuumed packed and rusted. It was very disappointing to pull one out of the shipping crate for processing and see a bag filled with red rust dust. The rusted Lugers were oiled and sold at a discount. The really rusted ones were torn down for the parts and the stripped frames sold. In the lot were just about every make but all were 9mm, had 4" barrels and VoPo grips. Some had pencil etched numbers. I do not recall the number of Lugers in the lot, but it numbered in the hundreds.

03-29-2019, 06:22 PM	#1
Roadster 02 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Rocky Mountain High Posts: 313 Thanks: 173 Thanked 252 Times in 87 Posts	Russian capture?? Just bought this Luger and was unsure if this is a RC gun or just a parts gun. Barrel has been replaced and has a crown N proof mark, and import mark. Cant figure out what Luger the barrel was originally on. Numbers don't all match and some of them are in electro pencil. Came with two Thalmann mags serialed to the gun. Toggle and receiver is 1938 S/42. Frame is 9936i. Top and back of toggle has had the original numbers ground out and restamped with 36. I don't know if this was something the RC rebuild did or if this is an attempt by someone here in the US to make the gun "matching". Last question, how much would this pistol be worth? Thanks. Attached Thumbnails

03-29-2019, 08:33 PM	#2
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	It is an East German rework, or Vopo luger. The barrel is likely a new made EG barrel installed at time of rework. Since you just bought it, why not tell us what it was worth? __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-29-2019, 08:42 PM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	The grips are typical VoPo (Russian Capture to East German Volkespolezei) bullseye trips. The importer was likely the "Cross Roads Gun Shop" "ECCSA" in Pennsauken, New Jersey. They imported quite a few East German / Russian Capture Lugers back in the 1980's. They have been long closed. The barrel change, and rest of the work was either done before it was imported, or the importer assembled guns from parts. It would really be hard to tell which. The Frame, (with no "Mauser Hump") probably is from an earlier Mauser Luger made in early 1937 or earlier. If it functions properly, it would be valued as a Shooter, and probably around $1000. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-29-2019, 10:27 PM	#5
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	That particular crown/N is the one used by East Germany; it is not the same as the "other" crown/N you are used to seeing on DWM commercial lugers(both receiver and barrels). There are way too many variables in luger pricing to give you a "value", you got a deal at $450 for sure. On some venues the selling price may have been 2x that; which only demonstrates that any "value" idea - has no value. JMHO. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-30-2019, 06:58 AM	#7
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	For $450 you definitely got a bargain, FWIK if there are no X or no other markings I don't think that is a RC. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

03-29-2019, 10:13 PM	#4
Roadster 02 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Rocky Mountain High Posts: 313 Thanks: 173 Thanked 252 Times in 87 Posts	The barrel crown over N stamping has me baffled, I thought the only place that stamp was used was on mostly commercial receivers, not barrels. I really wanted someone with better Luger knowledge than me to say what they thought the value was before I biased an opinion with what I paid. I gave $450 for this Luger, the two mags, and an unmarked loading tool.

03-30-2019, 09:22 AM	#8
Roadster 02 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Rocky Mountain High Posts: 313 Thanks: 173 Thanked 252 Times in 87 Posts	No others, it was a sale from armslist. I kind of thought that was an X below the serial number and letter i on the frame.

03-30-2019, 10:00 AM	#9
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	There is an 'X' on the sear bar. __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

03-30-2019, 11:14 AM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	The encircled X on the front of the frame would be there to cancel the letter suffix. --Dwight

03-30-2019, 11:32 AM	#12
Roadster 02 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Rocky Mountain High Posts: 313 Thanks: 173 Thanked 252 Times in 87 Posts	It also looks like some mark was canceled out to the right of the serial on the left side of the receiver. So I guess what I am reading is that this isn't a Russian Capture, it is a VOPO put together correct?

03-30-2019, 02:48 PM	#14
Roadster 02 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Rocky Mountain High Posts: 313 Thanks: 173 Thanked 252 Times in 87 Posts	Yeah, I did not read post 10 correctly, or my "understander" was out of service before I wrote post 12. I noticed my error after, but was hoping you didn't see it. No such luck. Sharp eyes. So is it normal on these pistols to find the Vopo markings canceled out, and also electro penciled numbers put in place of Xed out stamped numbers, or was this done by some "bubba"?

03-30-2019, 04:50 PM	#15
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	That was done to obscure the East German provenance. It's a totally correct VoPo.

03-30-2019, 07:24 PM	#16
Roadster 02 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Rocky Mountain High Posts: 313 Thanks: 173 Thanked 252 Times in 87 Posts	Thanks to all who responded.

03-30-2019, 07:43 PM	#17
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I was selling these DDR reworked PO8s back in the 80s & 90s, when I could purchase them in volume @$500 each, so $1K today would be about top dollar. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

03-30-2019, 10:08 PM	#18
Roadster 02 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Rocky Mountain High Posts: 313 Thanks: 173 Thanked 252 Times in 87 Posts	I guess I got a good deal. Even a blind squirrel picks up a few acorns now and then.

03-30-2019, 10:25 PM	#19
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	Deutsche Demokratische Republik. Otherwise known as the German Democratic Republic (GDR) or simply East Germany. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

04-01-2019, 04:03 PM	#20
RDS User Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: NE Posts: 13 Thanks: 34 Thanked 12 Times in 4 Posts	Mrerick is correct that Crossroads Gun Shop in Pennsauken NJ was the importer. The last batch of VoPo Lugers Crossroads attempted to import was seized by US Customs. I will not go into the details as to why they were seized. The Lugers in question sat in a US Customs bonded warehouse for over 5 years. At the Crossroads bankruptcy hearing the Lugers in question were sold to SARCO in Stirling NJ. The SARCO import stamp was hand stamped to the bottom of the barrel as SARCO was technically the importer. The Lugers were packed in heavy vacuumed sealed plastic bag along with two mags by the GDR. All were "dipped blued" before being vacuumed packed. Unfortunately some were not properly rinsed and oiled before being vacuumed packed and rusted. It was very disappointing to pull one out of the shipping crate for processing and see a bag filled with red rust dust. The rusted Lugers were oiled and sold at a discount. The really rusted ones were torn down for the parts and the stripped frames sold. In the lot were just about every make but all were 9mm, had 4" barrels and VoPo grips. Some had pencil etched numbers. I do not recall the number of Lugers in the lot, but it numbered in the hundreds.