Any Luger Mysteries Left ?

[Jasta2]

It seems like there has been so much deep research done and in depth books written about the Luger, is there any real mysteries left?
Excepting whatever happened to the other US Army test .45. Are there any Lugers known to be made, but never an example of one being found? Maybe some Lugers being found that the research shows were never made. I take the Russian Crossed Rifles and Death's Head might fall into that category. Are there many "WOW' type finds out there?

Not really part of my question, but something I found interesting. Quite a few years back, 10 maybe, one of the TV shows like 60 Minutes, took a trip back into the "No Go" Afghanistan mountain regions controlled by the Taliban, to research the locally made guns, like seeing a Colt 45 clone frame forged from a inground furnace. While in a local gun store there, so to speak, were many firearms hanging on the wall in the background, AK 47s and the like, but there a few ( I think 3) Lugers also on the wall. The view was from around 10 ft. away. Two of which for sure looked to be artilleries. What a story they could tell as to their travels to end up in the mountains of Afghanistan. Wonder if they are still there? LOL.

[HerrKaiser]

I had a colleague who served in Afghanistan that said his saddest day there was when his unit was ordered to destroy enemy ordinance that included a pristine condition Red 9 Mauser C96. He said you find a lot of old weapons there in enemy hands, including black powder single shot rifles from British colonial times.

[calibrator]

The biggest mystery to me is;

Why have the values of Lugers in general seemed to remain stagnant for the last 15 or so years I've been involved

The only folks who are getting a return on their purchase $$$ are probably Dealers scalping them from little old ladies at funerals.

[Vlim]

Don't worry. If I buy something the value usually drops even further.

But honestly the market has been struggling since the banking crisis hit and it never fully restored.

The Kü are still undocumented although good theories exist. And I like the Danzig lugers (grinning)

[Jasta2]

Vlim, I found this thread on KU Lugers from 2011 of which you replied. This is what I was talking about on the through research of Lugers. I've yet to thoroughly read the article, and to be honest, most of it is WAY over my head! But from your post here, It looks like since the 2011 article there is still questions as to the KU Lugers that are not answered. This is more like the questions I ask about Luger mysteries not yet fully understood. https://luger.gunboards.com/showthre...-Ku-Luger-fans

[Edward Tinker]

Always small mysteries - to me - did they make the first 10,000 Simson lugers in the first two years and parts, then slowly made them for police / army over time? (that is my gut feeling now) but to prove it, would require documentation I don't have.
----
I took apart a possible Simson #7 that was mostly unmarked but was supposedly taken from the wall of a office and I would love to own it Family probably wants to keep it...

Lots of little mysteries....

[mrerick]

I sincerely wish that we could somehow introduce firearms collecting and history into school curriculum.

American, European and World history were dry and almost boring subjects when I went to school. Civics classes, in which we thoroughly studied the actual formation and structure of our government was even more dry and detailed.

Can you imagine the number of young people that would perk up at being actually able to hold history in their hands from the various eras and human conflicts that are discussed? It is a crossover subject that combines sports, mechanical design and engineering and the political and technological history of each era represented.

Of course, it's clearly not "politically correct" today so I suppose it's place is outside formal education studies, but it sure would have made these classes quite a bit more interesting for me.

When I was in high school (an urban school with 5,200 students in a suburb adjacent to Chicago), I learned how to shoot safely and accurately from my biology teacher. He coached a high school rifle team on a range dug out underneath the school buildings. I am thankful for his dedication and also for preserving those DCM Winchester rifles as long as he could.

[Jasta2]

I guess that answers my question. There are still lots of little Luger mysteries to be solved.

When it comes to the KU Lugers. I know there was many Lugers made for the Fuftwaffe, were these all made by Krieghoff? If so, would the KU marked Lugers almost be considered a subset of the those made by Krieghoff to collectors? I'm sorry as to my knowledge of the Lugers made by Krieghoff.

[Jasta2]

Mrerick, I agree with you about the Political Correct culture we are in today when it comes to firearms, even to the point if a student wears a shirt pictured with a firearm will in most schools be expelled, sometimes for weeks. I can understand that to a point when these mass school shootings take place. When it comes to the P.C. bunch, American history and government in general is being totally rewritten in schools/colleges to fit their agenda. Even schools/colleges have gone to the point of prohibiting military recruiters on campus. The San Francisco ( that figures) school board voted to ban the JROTC from schools that might help their students "Become Better Citizens". Like to hear their logic of that. Sorry for wondering off of the topic of my original post.

[guns3545]

Originally Posted by Jasta2

I guess that answers my question. There are still lots of little Luger mysteries to be solved.

When it comes to the KU Lugers. I know there was many Lugers made for the Fuftwaffe, were these all made by Krieghoff? If so, would the KU marked Lugers almost be considered a subset of the those made by Krieghoff to collectors? I'm sorry as to my knowledge of the Lugers made by Krieghoff.

Bill,

Less than 10 percent of the Model P.08s issued to the Luftwaffe were made by Krieghoff. The vast majority were made by Mauser.

Now, from 1935 to 1937 , the original contract to Krieghoff for 10,000 guns was fulfilled. There is no record of Mauser shipments. HK supplied the LW needs in this timeframe

Subsequently, another approximately 3000 guns were made up to 1944. Totally about 13,000 guns. To put this in perspective, the total HK production of P.08s was just what Mauser produced in a good month.

From 1938 to 1942, Mauser shipped to the Luftwaffe approximately 162,000 guns, i.e. about 25 percent of its production during the peak years of supply.

The guns supplied to the Luftwaffe were not specifically marked and were proofed according to Heereswaffenamt standards and thus are not different from those shipped to the Army.

Now, as to the Ku's, these are basically Mauser made, some with mixed HK parts, that went through a Luftwaffe rebuild center and hence were inspected by the Luftwaffe inspectors. At least that is current thinking to which I subscribe. Remember for all intents and purposes, Mauser had switched production from the P.08 to the P.38 in 1942. The LW needed sidearms up to war end, but they were lower priority for the P.38 which was going to the Army. So they had to develop alternate sources.

It must be remembered that the Luftwaffe did more that fly airplanes. They had air defense, airborne and local security forces, etc. . They used a lot of P.08s. In fact except for some bomber and cargo aircraft, the P.08 was not used as crew sidearm because it was too big.

Hope this helps.

John

[Jasta2]

Thanks for the information. Yes, I do remember now many of the anti aircraft batteries were maned by LW personnel. So none of the Lugers issued to the anti aircraft batteries were unit marked.

[Dick Herman]

While DWM was the primary Luger (Parabellum) manufacturer they were not the only producers in the 1920s and early 1930s. Additional companies and gunsmith jobbers assembled the commercial market Parabellums, these include Krieghoff, Vono, Anschutz, Frankenschloss, Fritz Kless. The DWM marked toggle was probably used by all of these jobbers. With this number of companies involved in producing the Parabellum there is a wide range of quality.

During the 1920s and 1930s many variations of the Luger pistol were produced. Most of these variations were produced utilizing the vast stores of surplus Luger components. Many variations were assembled with improper and mixed surplus part numbers. Many of the pistols did not have completely matching numbered components. The primary emphasis of Parabellum fabricators was to sell as many Lugers a possible to stay in business.

We see many mismatched Lugers with “Germany” markings which are discounted as shooters of little value. I have wondered if some of these Lugers were assembled by German cottage industry gunsmith jobbers. These are Luger variations that need more investigation.

[DonVoigt]

I suppose each of the lugers assembled by concerns other than DWM and Simson, large or small -could possibly be a "variation".

I have no problem with lumping them together as "lugers assembled for commercial sale"; without finding some records we won't know the number or names(well a some are known as mentioned above) of the builders or how many were produced.

Several of us are still assembling "mismatched" lugers today.