DWM 1914 from Italy. another fake?

[Dennis Murgia]

I'm new to the forum and I'm writing from Italy: I apologize for my poor English.

How did I get here? let's start from the beginning: I always dreamed of touching a Luger and recently I bought P08 1914 DWM from an old collector, not passed off as a rare piece or captured by an officer, so much so that I was sold together with other pieces (including a bomische cz27) at a price that I consider paltry.
I tried to document myself asking for opinions on social media, probably the fastest way, but as often happens, conflicting opinions have emerged about the originality of this 1914. Mind you, criticism is welcome, but an explanation to a neophyte whom I am, would also welcome.

The general condition as you will see in the picture, worn, bruised, scratched, rusty, and I like it, lived, like presenting a gun that has served in 2 wars.

In any case, I would be grateful to all of you if you could express your opinions and give me clarifications regarding the authenticity of the components and perhaps history.

I searched on the precious indications present in the forum database and I noticed that the pantograph-engraved totenkopf is present in the archive reported as reworking on imperial lugers in the Nazi era but I did not find photos to make comparisons.

[Dennis Murgia]

another pic

[Dennis Murgia]

I also report the references of the various marking in the forum

[Roadster 02]

DWM pistol, Erfurt trigger. That's my one contribution

[DonVoigt]

I believe it is a genuine 1914 military luger, it obviously spent some time in the UK and gained commercial proofing there.

I also believe the Totenkopf to be a later and spurious addition. The Death Head marking opens an entire new or really old discussion as to whether the DH marking is original or fake. There are a number of threads with pictures on this forum discussing the DH lugers.
I found one for you:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=39442

This particular DH is orientated in a different direction than (all) others observed or pictured, and is obviously a pantograph addition, and somewhat crude to boot.

It is "safe" to assume that DH markings are fake- as to prove originality would require provenance other than just its presence on the pistol. JMHO

A couple other pictures of DH lugers, note these markings all appear to the stamped, rather than pantographed:

[Norme]

Hi Dennis,
Welcome to the forum! There are two schools of thought regarding the Death Head markings. One school insists that they are all fake, the other that some few are authentic and the rest fake. For some reason all the folks that own one of these guns firmly believe that their's is one of the genuine ones. As a non-partial observer I have to agree with Don, yours looks fake.
Regards, Norm

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Dennis,
Welcome to the forum! There are two schools of thought regarding the Death Head markings. One school insists that they are all fake, the other that some few are authentic and the rest fake. For some reason all the folks that own one of these guns firmly believe that their's is one of the genuine ones. As a non-partial observer I have to agree with Don, yours looks fake.
Regards, Norm

Norm and others,
the 1915 Death Head in my post does belong to me, and I still think it and most(if not all) DH lugers in circulation are fake!

It is surely odd that no DH lugers have surfaced in Europe, all have been found in the US(at least that is the "report").
I strongly suspect they were made by the luger Mafia, though I have heard the story that some dozen or two were created in Germany for export to the gullible US collectors.

[k98mike]

Luger mafia?????????????

[Norme]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Norm and others,
the 1915 Death Head in my post does belong to me, and I still think it and most(if not all) DH lugers in circulation are fake!

It is surely odd that no DH lugers have surfaced in Europe, all have been found in the US(at least that is the "report").
I strongly suspect they were made by the luger Mafia, though I have heard the story that some dozen or two were created in Germany for export to the gullible US collectors.

The O.P., and the gun, are in Italy.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Norme

The O.P., and the gun, are in Italy.

Thanks Norm, but really- I did realize that; maybe I should have said "stamped" DH.

But for sure this pantographed one is in Europe- but looks nothing like the "usual" DH; maybe it is a
"real" original!

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by k98mike

Luger mafia?????????????

Yes,
a derogatory term for craftsmen faking scarce or even fantasy lugers for profit. "They" appear to have been in existence and operation since the end of WWII!

Since the term"mafia" is not PC, my apologies in advance to anyone offended.

[k98mike]

Not offended at all- just didn't know the term. Mike

[Sergio Natali]

Luger Mafia?

Originally Posted by Norme

The O.P., and the gun, are in Italy.

At least the 95% of the Lugers in the hands of collectors in this Country has been imported from Germany, the collectors here are very few, and Luger collectors fewer still; so in my opinion Italy would be of no interest for any faker, especially of Lugers.
IMHO

[mrerick]

I wonder if we need a new more "politically correct" term like "decorated Lugers"?

After all, the Luger itself is a real pistol, generally coming from one or more of the Luger factories.

All these supposed value "enhancer" markings are intended to deceive collectors and buyers. Some are, I supposed, intended to celebrate things that are now discredited. And many of these markings are actually prohibited by law in Germany itself.

Since collectors look for Lugers that are as close as possible to the original state when the pistols left the factory, collectors are generally not interested in "decorated Lugers" unless we want one for some reason other than it's supposed rarity. After all, with these, there is generally just one - making it extremely rare.

[John Sabato]

Ciao! Dennis and welcome to the Lugerforum.


I was blessed to have lived in Italy during almost 7 years of my military career in the US Army, and I can assure you that your English is impeccable compared to the Italian language I remember from that time almost 4 decades ago.

Be very cautious my mew friend.

My only comment about the Luger pistol you have acquired is a gentle caution that if the gun is still in it's orginal 9mm parabellum chambering, and has not been converted to 9x21 caliber then you may be in technical violation of Italian law.

Perhaps our dear friend Sergio (luger.parabellum) could comment here and either verify what I have told you, or show me the error of my thinking.

Sergio? Demi per favore.

[Dennis Murgia]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Ciao! Dennis and welcome to the Lugerforum.


I was blessed to have lived in Italy during almost 7 years of my military career in the US Army, and I can assure you that your English is impeccable compared to the Italian language I remember from that time almost 4 decades ago.

Be very cautious my mew friend.

My only comment about the Luger pistol you have acquired is a gentle caution that if the gun is still in it's orginal 9mm parabellum chambering, and has not been converted to 9x21 caliber then you may be in technical violation of Italian law.

Perhaps our dear friend Sergio (luger.parabellum) could comment here and either verify what I have told you, or show me the error of my thinking.

HI John, thank you for the answer, in the picture you can see the stamp of the Italian BANCO NAZIONALE di PROVA (BNP) which approved the pistol for the Italian civil market in 7.65 Parabellum caliber just because of the laws that forbade 9Luger.
So unfortunately the caliber is no longer original but is the only one allowed together with 9x21

[Dennis Murgia]

I am very grateful to all of you who contribute to this analysis: some Italian weapons collectors and experts have defined this Luger as reblued and assembled but without explaining their motivations. I also looked at the stikynote but I still don't understand if this gun has an original finish, even partial, and if the various components have been modified, as in the case of the Erfurt trigger.

[Norme]

Hi Dennis,
The finish appears to be original, the barrel serial numbers exhibit the halo effect, a pretty good indicator of original finish.
Regards, Norm

[John Sabato]

If the pits in the surface are BLUE, then the gun has been refinished... If the pits are IN the blue, then the finish is likely original... Sorry I can't tell by the photos...

[Sergio Natali]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

If the pits in the surface are BLUE, then the gun has been refinished... If the pits are IN the blue, then the finish is likely original... Sorry I can't tell by the photos...

What John has said reflects my exact point of view.
Photographs are not always a good indicator of what the actual finish looks like, I' afraid there is some cause for doubt as to the originality of that pistol.
As far as the death head mark is concerned, so far all the so called "Totenkopf" Lugers that I've seen looked as if somebody had tried to "improve" them ... and even more I would think about this one with a pantographed D.H.
IMHO