Interesting gun-sales legal case and a more interesting explanation.

DavidJayUden · 10-14-2019, 02:23 PM

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/us/ar...nvs/index.html

and a good explanation of "why":

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/th...a1veG5EtuvQ7LM

dju

m1903a3 · 10-14-2019, 02:52 PM

the "explanation" is unrelated

Vlim · 10-14-2019, 02:59 PM

The 'receiver' bit is funny.

Just about any country I know identifies barrel, receiver and frame as essential gun parts.

DavidJayUden · 10-14-2019, 03:42 PM

the "explanation" is unrelated

Sorry, try this: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/th...a1veG5EtuvQ7LM

dju

Edward Tinker · 10-14-2019, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

The 'receiver' bit is funny.

Just about any country I know identifies barrel, receiver and frame as essential gun parts.

In the USA - where the bolt goes is considered the receiver, but for pistols, the 'frame' is the part considered the legal part, NOT the upper receiver. The issue I see with something like this is that all major parts could fall under ATF purview, so uppers, frames, bolts, etc.

Vlim · 10-14-2019, 05:05 PM

Would not surprise me. That is a scenario the EU is working towards. There are already marking requirements for new guns that are quite strict.

HerrKaiser · 10-14-2019, 05:36 PM

I agree with Ed here, I read that and my immediate thought was that Congress will now be pressured to write a law that makes all major components into a legal "firearm" subject to ATF regulations. Not that I trust any of the current lot in DC to make a law that is possible to realistically follow without committing a felony in the process anyway.

lugerholsterrepair · 10-14-2019, 07:00 PM

Is strict "gun control" making those areas safer?? More lies and exaggerations from the “democrats” and the Toady MSM!!
Putting Gun-Control to the Test with Real Data: Result – DEADLY FAIL
U.S.A. –-(Ammoland.com)- We all want to protect our family and friends. Gun-Control is the theory that disarming honest people will stop violent criminals. That is a fantastic theory, but does gun-control work in practice?
Now that we have newly released FBI crime data at hand, we don’t have to guess if gun-control reduces violent crime. The answers might surprise you as we look from coast to coast. Does gun control save lives or cost them?
The gun-control laws in Los Angeles are extreme. You won’t get a permit to carry a handgun in public unless you are a judge or a politician. You have to be over 21 years old to buy a rifle. You also need to show a state firearms safety card and to pass a background check each time you buy ammunition. Those regulations prevent many honest citizens from having a firearm for self-defense. How well did those gun-control laws work at stopping violent crime in Los Angeles?
The rate of violent crime in LA is more than twice the national average. (748/369 per 100 thousand)
Seattle gun-control laws are quite strict. Firearms purchases are taxed. You must to go through a background check to buy a firearm and you can’t loan a gun to a friend even if your friend already owns other firearms. People under 21 years of age may not buy many types of rifles. The police can seize your guns if you’re alleged to be a danger to yourself or to others. In addition, firearms have to be locked away when they are not in use. How well did those gun-control laws work at stopping violent crime?
The rate of violent crime in Seattle is 84 percent above the national average. (680/369 per 100 thousand)
banner
The gun-control laws in Chicago are intimidating. The regulatory hurdles to buy a gun, and to get a concealed carry permit, are among the most expensive and lengthy in the nation. Chicago outlaws the ownership of certain types of rifles and has effectively banned gun ranges in the city. Chicago has mandatory waiting periods, so residents who obey the law have to wait an extraordinarily long time between when they ask permission to buy a gun and when they may finally take possession of that firearm. The purchase of ammunition is also strictly regulated. How well did those gun-control laws work at stopping violent crime?
The rate of violent crime in Chicago is almost three times higher than the national average. (1006/369 per 100 thousand)
In addition to state laws, New York City has its own burdensome gun laws. The licencing application to buy a long gun or handgun runs over a dozen pages and required a criminal background check. Owning a handgun requires a purchase permit as well as a state and city license. The application process takes from three to six months and requires a personal interview. You need a different permit if you want to have your firearm stored at your home or at your business. You need a separate permit if you want to store your firearm at a residence outside the city. Those permits do not allow you to have your legally owned firearm available for use as you travel to and from work or between your homes. New York also restricts the type of rifles you may own. They restrict the amount of ammunition your firearms may hold. New York also has so called “red flag” gun-control laws, so school officials, members of law enforcement, or members of your family can ask the court to block you from buying or owning firearms without you being present or represented at the hearing.
These regulations don’t stop criminals since the rate of violent crime in New York City is 66 percent higher than the national average. (614/369 per 100 thousand)
Baltimore’s gun-control laws are extremely strict. They require mandatory background checks when firearms are transferred. A safety course and purchase permit is required to buy a handgun. Mental health professionals, law enforcement officers, or a family member can ask for a protective order to disarm a gun owner without the gun owner being present at the legal proceedings. Many firearms are in a restricted category so that law abiding gun owners may only purchase one gun a month. The state also has a registry of all handgun owners. Baltimore denies concealed carry permits to ordinary citizens so you are effectively disarmed in public. The state also restricts the type of rifles you may own, and the amount of ammunition that firearms may hold.
These laws fail to reduce crime since the crime rate for Baltimore is almost five times the national average. (1833/369 per 100 thousand) With over 300 murders in 2018, Baltimore politicians called for more of the same.
The gun-control laws in Trenton NJ prevent many honest people from owning guns. You need a state permit to buy any firearm, and this permit takes months or years to obtain. New Jersey denies ordinary citizens the right to carry a firearm in public. The state also keeps a record of all registered handgun owners. The type of long guns you may own is restricted as is the ammunition capacity of all firearms. A judge may issue a restraining order to confiscate your firearms without you being present or represented. How well do those gun-control laws work at stopping violent crime in Trenton, New Jersey?
The rate of violent crime in Trenton is more than three times higher than the national average. (1161/369 per 100 thousand)
The gun-control laws in Boston deeply restrict the rights of law abiding people to own and use firearms for self-defense. The city requires a permit to purchase either a long gun or a handgun. It also requires a license to own the firearm. Law enforcement officers have denied these permits saying that the citizen did not have a justified reason to own a firearm. Boston police may also refuse to issue concealed carry permits to citizens with a clean criminal record. The type of long guns you may own is restricted as is the ammunition capacity of all firearms. A judge may issue an order to confiscate your firearms without you being present or represented. How well do those gun-control laws work at stopping violent crime in Boston?
The rate of violent crime is about 70 percent higher than the national average. (622/369 per 100 thousand)
We’ve looked at city after city, and the evidence is clear. Gun-control laws do not make us safer. In fact, these laws put honest citizens in greater danger from violent crime. I found this data with a few hours of study so any honest journalist could have tested the theory of gun-control..if they wanted to know the truth.
Gun-control is getting us killed. The sad news is that politicians will continue to call for gun-control as long as it gets them elected. Fortunately, we can put a stop to that.
Please stay safe.

mrerick · 10-14-2019, 08:10 PM

It takes quite a bit of energy and investment to conceal the truth while promoting the fantasy that "gun control" can impact crime by making people safer. We gun owners and collectors were among the first targeted by false media narratives - and have been for over 50 years.

Here's a current example of the legacy media in action.

This one is rich:

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitic...dish-civilians

ABC News lead off their newscast with a story of Turkey's invasion of Syria and illustrated it with a Kentucky machine gun shoot video. Then they got caught. Then they removed the carefully edited video (which removed any images of the audience watching) and claimed "a mistake"...

It's not "paranoia" if they really are out to get you by any means possible.

- - - -

As Luger Collectors in the USA, we should be particularly sensitive to the unintended consequences of the current push for "Red Flag" Extreme Risk Protection Order laws. These are gun confiscation laws, and irrationally target people that are frightening and scary.

The Luger, in particular, has been called out as a "sinister" firearm by any number of cultural and media efforts. I believe that this will make us particularly at risk as target of these Red Flag orders.

"Who needs one of these scary sinister guns" will become a future media meme.

The laws are now being routinely misused in several states that have passed them.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/flo...aken-identity/

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/cr...sdu-story.html

Here's a brochure I've written about these laws:

http://rightswatch.org/documents/201...kingPoints.pdf

calibrator · 10-15-2019, 12:31 PM

I was never a fan of the 80% lower idea, or of the notion of "Build Parties" that seemed to be popular in areas of California, as judged by a few years that I visited the CalGuns forum in the distant past. IMHO, 80% Lower firearm = JUNK. It made me count my blessings living in AZ, and hoping that 'fornians moving here would leave their politics at the border and could assimilate into a Free State

.

More than a few people on firearms forums seem to like to put their fingers in their ears and chant "LA-LA-LA" so they can't hear the truth. IMHO, it's about a political agenda embraced 100% by a certain Party as judged by recent "Debates".

Gun Control is not about taking guns from murderous fiends, it is actually about the Govt controlling the "People" to further it's agenda. Many pundits say "An armed Society, is a POLITE Society". Why, because it levels the field so that even an 80 yr old Grandma can defend herself against a gang of teenage rapists breaking into her home at midnight.

I won't be-labor the point beyond saying that a "Gun Free Zone" is a Killing Field waiting for the right Perfect Storm to brew. Mass-murderers don't go to Gun Shows. They don't go to Biker bars (unless it's a rival club, but then that's just part of the lifestyle

), … etc.

I tend to feel that mass shooters are basically suicidal. If they hate themselves, surely killing a couple dozen they perceive to be to blame is a cathartic build-up to their "Suicide By Cop". Surely a sane person does NOT expect to walk away and live at peace afterward. I do DARE say that statistics bear out that most mass shooters were being prescribed some sort of psychotropic drug when they acted.

Raising awareness about the precarious position firearms owners now find themselves currently, I feel is imperative. You will NOT get accurate info from any Main Stream Media outlet. Sharing info on Forums such as this one are key to "Average" folks having access to what's really going on so that they can make up their own minds regarding the politics of Gun Control.

Just as ALL WW II German soldiers weren't Nazis, all straight, white males aren't misogynist white supremacists today as many MSM pundits would have you believe from their editorials. Just hope that some ingenious member of the Brady Bunch doesn't seize on the idea that the "Luger" is universally recognized by some as the sidearm of choice for the portrayal of "NAZIS" as pointed out by "mrerick" above.

10-14-2019, 02:23 PM	#1
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Interesting gun-sales legal case and a more interesting explanation. https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/us/ar...nvs/index.html and a good explanation of "why": https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/th...a1veG5EtuvQ7LM dju

10-14-2019, 02:52 PM	#2
m1903a3 User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 198 Thanks: 26 Thanked 315 Times in 112 Posts	the "explanation" is unrelated __________________ - Mike Life member: NRA, OVMS, VGCA Member: NAPCA, N-SSA(Veteran) Si vis pacem, para bellum

10-14-2019, 05:36 PM	#7
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	I agree with Ed here, I read that and my immediate thought was that Congress will now be pressured to write a law that makes all major components into a legal "firearm" subject to ATF regulations. Not that I trust any of the current lot in DC to make a law that is possible to realistically follow without committing a felony in the process anyway. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

10-14-2019, 07:00 PM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Is strict "gun control" making those areas safer?? More lies and exaggerations from the “democrats” and the Toady MSM!! Putting Gun-Control to the Test with Real Data: Result – DEADLY FAIL U.S.A. –-(Ammoland.com)- We all want to protect our family and friends. Gun-Control is the theory that disarming honest people will stop violent criminals. That is a fantastic theory, but does gun-control work in practice? Now that we have newly released FBI crime data at hand, we don’t have to guess if gun-control reduces violent crime. The answers might surprise you as we look from coast to coast. Does gun control save lives or cost them? The gun-control laws in Los Angeles are extreme. You won’t get a permit to carry a handgun in public unless you are a judge or a politician. You have to be over 21 years old to buy a rifle. You also need to show a state firearms safety card and to pass a background check each time you buy ammunition. Those regulations prevent many honest citizens from having a firearm for self-defense. How well did those gun-control laws work at stopping violent crime in Los Angeles? The rate of violent crime in LA is more than twice the national average. (748/369 per 100 thousand) Seattle gun-control laws are quite strict. Firearms purchases are taxed. You must to go through a background check to buy a firearm and you can’t loan a gun to a friend even if your friend already owns other firearms. People under 21 years of age may not buy many types of rifles. The police can seize your guns if you’re alleged to be a danger to yourself or to others. In addition, firearms have to be locked away when they are not in use. How well did those gun-control laws work at stopping violent crime? The rate of violent crime in Seattle is 84 percent above the national average. (680/369 per 100 thousand) banner The gun-control laws in Chicago are intimidating. The regulatory hurdles to buy a gun, and to get a concealed carry permit, are among the most expensive and lengthy in the nation. Chicago outlaws the ownership of certain types of rifles and has effectively banned gun ranges in the city. Chicago has mandatory waiting periods, so residents who obey the law have to wait an extraordinarily long time between when they ask permission to buy a gun and when they may finally take possession of that firearm. The purchase of ammunition is also strictly regulated. How well did those gun-control laws work at stopping violent crime? The rate of violent crime in Chicago is almost three times higher than the national average. (1006/369 per 100 thousand) In addition to state laws, New York City has its own burdensome gun laws. The licencing application to buy a long gun or handgun runs over a dozen pages and required a criminal background check. Owning a handgun requires a purchase permit as well as a state and city license. The application process takes from three to six months and requires a personal interview. You need a different permit if you want to have your firearm stored at your home or at your business. You need a separate permit if you want to store your firearm at a residence outside the city. Those permits do not allow you to have your legally owned firearm available for use as you travel to and from work or between your homes. New York also restricts the type of rifles you may own. They restrict the amount of ammunition your firearms may hold. New York also has so called “red flag” gun-control laws, so school officials, members of law enforcement, or members of your family can ask the court to block you from buying or owning firearms without you being present or represented at the hearing. These regulations don’t stop criminals since the rate of violent crime in New York City is 66 percent higher than the national average. (614/369 per 100 thousand) Baltimore’s gun-control laws are extremely strict. They require mandatory background checks when firearms are transferred. A safety course and purchase permit is required to buy a handgun. Mental health professionals, law enforcement officers, or a family member can ask for a protective order to disarm a gun owner without the gun owner being present at the legal proceedings. Many firearms are in a restricted category so that law abiding gun owners may only purchase one gun a month. The state also has a registry of all handgun owners. Baltimore denies concealed carry permits to ordinary citizens so you are effectively disarmed in public. The state also restricts the type of rifles you may own, and the amount of ammunition that firearms may hold. These laws fail to reduce crime since the crime rate for Baltimore is almost five times the national average. (1833/369 per 100 thousand) With over 300 murders in 2018, Baltimore politicians called for more of the same. The gun-control laws in Trenton NJ prevent many honest people from owning guns. You need a state permit to buy any firearm, and this permit takes months or years to obtain. New Jersey denies ordinary citizens the right to carry a firearm in public. The state also keeps a record of all registered handgun owners. The type of long guns you may own is restricted as is the ammunition capacity of all firearms. A judge may issue a restraining order to confiscate your firearms without you being present or represented. How well do those gun-control laws work at stopping violent crime in Trenton, New Jersey? The rate of violent crime in Trenton is more than three times higher than the national average. (1161/369 per 100 thousand) The gun-control laws in Boston deeply restrict the rights of law abiding people to own and use firearms for self-defense. The city requires a permit to purchase either a long gun or a handgun. It also requires a license to own the firearm. Law enforcement officers have denied these permits saying that the citizen did not have a justified reason to own a firearm. Boston police may also refuse to issue concealed carry permits to citizens with a clean criminal record. The type of long guns you may own is restricted as is the ammunition capacity of all firearms. A judge may issue an order to confiscate your firearms without you being present or represented. How well do those gun-control laws work at stopping violent crime in Boston? The rate of violent crime is about 70 percent higher than the national average. (622/369 per 100 thousand) We’ve looked at city after city, and the evidence is clear. Gun-control laws do not make us safer. In fact, these laws put honest citizens in greater danger from violent crime. I found this data with a few hours of study so any honest journalist could have tested the theory of gun-control..if they wanted to know the truth. Gun-control is getting us killed. The sad news is that politicians will continue to call for gun-control as long as it gets them elected. Fortunately, we can put a stop to that. Please stay safe. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-14-2019, 08:10 PM	#9
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	It takes quite a bit of energy and investment to conceal the truth while promoting the fantasy that "gun control" can impact crime by making people safer. We gun owners and collectors were among the first targeted by false media narratives - and have been for over 50 years. Here's a current example of the legacy media in action. This one is rich: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitic...dish-civilians ABC News lead off their newscast with a story of Turkey's invasion of Syria and illustrated it with a Kentucky machine gun shoot video. Then they got caught. Then they removed the carefully edited video (which removed any images of the audience watching) and claimed "a mistake"... It's not "paranoia" if they really are out to get you by any means possible. - - - - As Luger Collectors in the USA, we should be particularly sensitive to the unintended consequences of the current push for "Red Flag" Extreme Risk Protection Order laws. These are gun confiscation laws, and irrationally target people that are frightening and scary. The Luger, in particular, has been called out as a "sinister" firearm by any number of cultural and media efforts. I believe that this will make us particularly at risk as target of these Red Flag orders. "Who needs one of these scary sinister guns" will become a future media meme. The laws are now being routinely misused in several states that have passed them. https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/flo...aken-identity/ https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/cr...sdu-story.html Here's a brochure I've written about these laws: http://rightswatch.org/documents/201...kingPoints.pdf __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-14-2019, 02:59 PM	#3
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	The 'receiver' bit is funny. Just about any country I know identifies barrel, receiver and frame as essential gun parts.

10-14-2019, 03:42 PM	#4
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	the "explanation" is unrelated Sorry, try this: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/th...a1veG5EtuvQ7LM dju

10-14-2019, 05:05 PM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Would not surprise me. That is a scenario the EU is working towards. There are already marking requirements for new guns that are quite strict.

10-15-2019, 12:31 PM	#10
calibrator User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Cave Creek Posts: 315 Thanks: 55 Thanked 242 Times in 92 Posts	I was never a fan of the 80% lower idea, or of the notion of "Build Parties" that seemed to be popular in areas of California, as judged by a few years that I visited the CalGuns forum in the distant past. IMHO, 80% Lower firearm = JUNK. It made me count my blessings living in AZ, and hoping that 'fornians moving here would leave their politics at the border and could assimilate into a Free State . More than a few people on firearms forums seem to like to put their fingers in their ears and chant "LA-LA-LA" so they can't hear the truth. IMHO, it's about a political agenda embraced 100% by a certain Party as judged by recent "Debates". Gun Control is not about taking guns from murderous fiends, it is actually about the Govt controlling the "People" to further it's agenda. Many pundits say "An armed Society, is a POLITE Society". Why, because it levels the field so that even an 80 yr old Grandma can defend herself against a gang of teenage rapists breaking into her home at midnight. I won't be-labor the point beyond saying that a "Gun Free Zone" is a Killing Field waiting for the right Perfect Storm to brew. Mass-murderers don't go to Gun Shows. They don't go to Biker bars (unless it's a rival club, but then that's just part of the lifestyle ), … etc. I tend to feel that mass shooters are basically suicidal. If they hate themselves, surely killing a couple dozen they perceive to be to blame is a cathartic build-up to their "Suicide By Cop". Surely a sane person does NOT expect to walk away and live at peace afterward. I do DARE say that statistics bear out that most mass shooters were being prescribed some sort of psychotropic drug when they acted. Raising awareness about the precarious position firearms owners now find themselves currently, I feel is imperative. You will NOT get accurate info from any Main Stream Media outlet. Sharing info on Forums such as this one are key to "Average" folks having access to what's really going on so that they can make up their own minds regarding the politics of Gun Control. Just as ALL WW II German soldiers weren't Nazis, all straight, white males aren't misogynist white supremacists today as many MSM pundits would have you believe from their editorials. Just hope that some ingenious member of the Brady Bunch doesn't seize on the idea that the "Luger" is universally recognized by some as the sidearm of choice for the portrayal of "NAZIS" as pointed out by "mrerick" above.