Luger with no date stamp

Yanik213 · 10-14-2019, 08:40 PM

Hello everyone I’m new to this forum and new to owning a luger, i was hoping some of you can give me some insight on what i have, year, worth, caliber etc. Thanks in advance!

LU1900 · 10-14-2019, 09:49 PM

Wellcome
Erfurt manufacture with a new barrel , acceptance stamp and year seems to be ground off , but make from 1916 , 1917 or 1918

Doubs · 10-15-2019, 03:16 AM

A nice looking Luger that has an Erfurt toggle train and frame but the trigger has been replaced (different number) and the barrel is a replacement.

The lack of a date likely means it was reworked post WW1. Caliber is impossible to determine from your pictures but the fact that it's been re-barreled suggests that it MAY be 30 caliber (7.65mm). Many WW1 9mm Lugers were converted to 30 caliber and use a cartridge like the bottle neck ones below. On the far right is a 9mm.

Dwight Gruber · 10-15-2019, 06:42 AM

The frame, receiver, breechblock and barrel have the Suhl commercial proof stamp set.

--Dwight

Mac Cat · 10-15-2019, 09:55 AM

It looks like a commercial luger to me.
I wondered if the toggle a replacement.

Bill_in_VA · 10-15-2019, 10:10 AM

Let’s see some photos of the top, left, and right sides of the cannon, please.

Yanik213 · 10-15-2019, 07:24 PM

Thank you all! I will post more pictures in hopes that helps. Curious to know why you would think it’s a barrel replacement since the upper and lower have matching numbers?

Yanik213 · 10-15-2019, 07:30 PM

More pics

HerrKaiser · 10-15-2019, 07:47 PM

Well, it is because the features of the upper are...unique to say the least. As you mention, all the numbers do appear to match. However, the crown N and "Made in Germany" stamped on the barrel, as well as the blank chamber, indicate that much of the upper was commercial instead of military production. The toggle train is Erfurt Production, and Erfurt did not make commercial Lugers, only guns for the military. Your sideplate also appears to be Erfurt military, and the top of the chamber has an "artillery cut" for an LP-08-which had numerous manufacturers. I dont think I have ever seen a Luger configuration like this.

Yanik213 · 10-15-2019, 07:50 PM

Is that bad or good lol (never seen a Luger like this)

Ron Wood · 10-15-2019, 08:23 PM

The receiver is military with the date ground off.
Ron

DavidJayUden · 10-16-2019, 12:34 AM

Barrel looks a bit short. Has it been established if it is .30 cal. or 9mm?
dju

Yanik213 · 10-16-2019, 01:25 AM

I have no idea what caliber it is, i put a 9m luger in the clip and it seemed to be a perfect fit but again i have no experience in this type of firearm. I don’t think it’s a reproduction from the stamps but i could be wrong, that’s why I’m here trying to get answers. I’m getting conflicting answers so now I’m even more confused lol. I really do appreciate all and any info. Thanks again everyone!

Doubs · 10-16-2019, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerrKaiser

However, the crown N and "Made in Germany" stamped on the barrel, as well as the blank chamber, indicate that much of the upper was commercial instead of military production.

The receiver notch for an Artillery rear sight indicates that it was military production. IMO, everything except the replacement barrel was military.

Below is my 1920's rework of an Erfurt Luger with a new 7.65mm barrel and the date removed. Everything except the barrel is matching. I acquired this in the late 1980's and it was imported by CAI as marked on the barrel. They list it as an M24 suggesting that it came from Finland.

The serial number is in the "i" block so it was made in 1917 or 1918. In Still's "Imperial Lugers", no "i" block 1916 Erfurt Lugers were REPORTED above the "g" block while the "i" block was used in both 1917 and 1918.

DonVoigt · 10-16-2019, 11:20 AM

It is fairly easy to check the bore size.
Just place the 9mm round in the muzzle and see if it is close to fitting; or even measure the bore with calipers, or see if a standard wooden pencil will go into the bore.

Post a picture of the muzzle from straight ahead- one can usually see the thicker wall of the 7,65mm even in a picture.

Magazines are the same for 9mm and 7,65mm cartridges- so the cartridge fitting the mag is not an indicator.

Edward Tinker · 10-16-2019, 11:39 AM

Erfurt made no commercial guns - so it would be a post-war gun sold to the USA OR just a barrel change in the USA

Or as said, a different toggle

mrerick · 10-16-2019, 03:35 PM

Both 9mm and .30 cartridges will fit into the Luger magazine. The barrel determines what the gun will chamber and fire.

The barrel profile and markings don't look like one that left the Erfurt factory on the gun. Erfurt only made military contract guns.

There are what look to be Erfurt acceptance markings on many parts we can see in your photos, including the frame, but not on the barrel.

The aluminum base magazine is later vintage.

There is an illustration of how to determine the caliber (9mm Luger or .30 Luger) in our FAQ PDF document. Why not download a copy? Just click on the FAQ link at the top of every forum page and follow it to the item with the PDF files.

Doubs · 10-16-2019, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

The aluminum base magazine is later vintage.

I think you're confusing the OP's pistol with the one I posted.

Lugerdoc · 10-18-2019, 04:15 PM

Yanik, The horizonal C/N on both your left side receiver and frame indicate to me that this luger is a Kreighof rework of a 9mm WW1 military luger, into a 7,65mm commerical luger in the 1920s for the US market. TH

Yakman · 01-06-2020, 03:01 PM

I don't think anyone would doubt this is a post WW1 rework for the commercial market, and by the "MADE IN GERMANY" stamped on the replacement barrel, the US market. The rework appears to be very nicely done and the gun appears to have remained in nice condition. Except for the barrel, the Luger and most of its parts, by their markings, are Erfurt. The grip screws don't appear to be marked.

I think a reworked Erfurt for the commercial market is scarce. The vast majority of post war Lugers are DWM, and I'm not sure how many of them were reworked surplus by DWM, as opposed to Lugers made with all new made parts. I do have a 1920 com... oops... alphabet commercial Navy in the "r" suffix range that has obviouly reworked surplus parts. The barrel has a Navy firing proof, but is otherwise unnumbered and unmarked. I have never seen an Erfurt rework that could be attributed to DWM.

Probably what's the most curious thing to me about this pistol is the Proof House style and placement of the commercial firing proofs. The one in the usual place on the left side of the barrel extension is hoizontal as is usual on prewar commercials instead of verticle as is usual on post war Lugers. Next is the placing of another horizontal firing proof on the left rail of the frame, directly below the one on the barrel extension. Firing proofs would normally be placed on the barrel, barrel extention, and left side of the toggle. I don't understand why there would even be one at all on the frame. And then the toggle, the usual place would be on the left side. On this Luger, if it is even a firing proof at all, is on the top of the front link, to the left of the extractor. I'm only guessing that is a proof. It looks to me like a crown over the two upright sides of an "N", absent the center slant of the "N". I guess this to be an "N" because the serifs are correctly placed for an "N". The center is missing for whatever the reason.

I think this is a nice Luger and an interesting conversation piece.

Jack

10-14-2019, 08:40 PM	#1
Yanik213 User Join Date: Oct 2019 Posts: 5 Thanks: 8 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Luger with no date stamp Hello everyone I’m new to this forum and new to owning a luger, i was hoping some of you can give me some insight on what i have, year, worth, caliber etc. Thanks in advance! Attached Thumbnails

10-14-2019, 09:49 PM	#2
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 908 Thanks: 42 Thanked 469 Times in 197 Posts	Wellcome Erfurt manufacture with a new barrel , acceptance stamp and year seems to be ground off , but make from 1916 , 1917 or 1918 __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

10-15-2019, 10:10 AM	#6
Bill_in_VA User Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 373 Thanks: 771 Thanked 554 Times in 198 Posts	Let’s see some photos of the top, left, and right sides of the cannon, please. __________________ John 8:32 reive (riːv) vb (Military) (intr) dialect Scot and Northern English to go on a plundering raid [variant of reave] ˈreiver n e.g., " Some view the Border Reivers as loveable rogues."

10-15-2019, 07:30 PM	#8
Yanik213 User Join Date: Oct 2019 Posts: 5 Thanks: 8 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Luger More pics Attached Thumbnails

10-15-2019, 07:47 PM	#9
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	Well, it is because the features of the upper are...unique to say the least. As you mention, all the numbers do appear to match. However, the crown N and "Made in Germany" stamped on the barrel, as well as the blank chamber, indicate that much of the upper was commercial instead of military production. The toggle train is Erfurt Production, and Erfurt did not make commercial Lugers, only guns for the military. Your sideplate also appears to be Erfurt military, and the top of the chamber has an "artillery cut" for an LP-08-which had numerous manufacturers. I dont think I have ever seen a Luger configuration like this. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

10-15-2019, 03:16 AM	#3
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,698 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,687 Times in 554 Posts	A nice looking Luger that has an Erfurt toggle train and frame but the trigger has been replaced (different number) and the barrel is a replacement. The lack of a date likely means it was reworked post WW1. Caliber is impossible to determine from your pictures but the fact that it's been re-barreled suggests that it MAY be 30 caliber (7.65mm). Many WW1 9mm Lugers were converted to 30 caliber and use a cartridge like the bottle neck ones below. On the far right is a 9mm.

10-15-2019, 06:42 AM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	The frame, receiver, breechblock and barrel have the Suhl commercial proof stamp set. --Dwight

10-15-2019, 09:55 AM	#5
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 731 Thanks: 2,095 Thanked 610 Times in 329 Posts	It looks like a commercial luger to me. I wondered if the toggle a replacement.

10-15-2019, 07:24 PM	#7
Yanik213 User Join Date: Oct 2019 Posts: 5 Thanks: 8 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Thank you all! I will post more pictures in hopes that helps. Curious to know why you would think it’s a barrel replacement since the upper and lower have matching numbers?

10-15-2019, 07:50 PM	#10
Yanik213 User Join Date: Oct 2019 Posts: 5 Thanks: 8 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Haha Is that bad or good lol (never seen a Luger like this)

10-15-2019, 08:23 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	The receiver is military with the date ground off. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-16-2019, 12:34 AM	#12
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Barrel looks a bit short. Has it been established if it is .30 cal. or 9mm? dju

10-16-2019, 01:25 AM	#13
Yanik213 User Join Date: Oct 2019 Posts: 5 Thanks: 8 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Caliber I have no idea what caliber it is, i put a 9m luger in the clip and it seemed to be a perfect fit but again i have no experience in this type of firearm. I don’t think it’s a reproduction from the stamps but i could be wrong, that’s why I’m here trying to get answers. I’m getting conflicting answers so now I’m even more confused lol. I really do appreciate all and any info. Thanks again everyone!

10-16-2019, 11:20 AM	#15
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	It is fairly easy to check the bore size. Just place the 9mm round in the muzzle and see if it is close to fitting; or even measure the bore with calipers, or see if a standard wooden pencil will go into the bore. Post a picture of the muzzle from straight ahead- one can usually see the thicker wall of the 7,65mm even in a picture. Magazines are the same for 9mm and 7,65mm cartridges- so the cartridge fitting the mag is not an indicator. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

10-16-2019, 11:39 AM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Erfurt made no commercial guns - so it would be a post-war gun sold to the USA OR just a barrel change in the USA Or as said, a different toggle

10-16-2019, 03:35 PM	#17
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Both 9mm and .30 cartridges will fit into the Luger magazine. The barrel determines what the gun will chamber and fire. The barrel profile and markings don't look like one that left the Erfurt factory on the gun. Erfurt only made military contract guns. There are what look to be Erfurt acceptance markings on many parts we can see in your photos, including the frame, but not on the barrel. The aluminum base magazine is later vintage. There is an illustration of how to determine the caliber (9mm Luger or .30 Luger) in our FAQ PDF document. Why not download a copy? Just click on the FAQ link at the top of every forum page and follow it to the item with the PDF files. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-18-2019, 04:15 PM	#19
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Yanik, The horizonal C/N on both your left side receiver and frame indicate to me that this luger is a Kreighof rework of a 9mm WW1 military luger, into a 7,65mm commerical luger in the 1920s for the US market. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

01-06-2020, 03:01 PM	#20
Yakman User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Indiana Posts: 119 Thanks: 881 Thanked 81 Times in 40 Posts	I don't think anyone would doubt this is a post WW1 rework for the commercial market, and by the "MADE IN GERMANY" stamped on the replacement barrel, the US market. The rework appears to be very nicely done and the gun appears to have remained in nice condition. Except for the barrel, the Luger and most of its parts, by their markings, are Erfurt. The grip screws don't appear to be marked. I think a reworked Erfurt for the commercial market is scarce. The vast majority of post war Lugers are DWM, and I'm not sure how many of them were reworked surplus by DWM, as opposed to Lugers made with all new made parts. I do have a 1920 com... oops... alphabet commercial Navy in the "r" suffix range that has obviouly reworked surplus parts. The barrel has a Navy firing proof, but is otherwise unnumbered and unmarked. I have never seen an Erfurt rework that could be attributed to DWM. Probably what's the most curious thing to me about this pistol is the Proof House style and placement of the commercial firing proofs. The one in the usual place on the left side of the barrel extension is hoizontal as is usual on prewar commercials instead of verticle as is usual on post war Lugers. Next is the placing of another horizontal firing proof on the left rail of the frame, directly below the one on the barrel extension. Firing proofs would normally be placed on the barrel, barrel extention, and left side of the toggle. I don't understand why there would even be one at all on the frame. And then the toggle, the usual place would be on the left side. On this Luger, if it is even a firing proof at all, is on the top of the front link, to the left of the extractor. I'm only guessing that is a proof. It looks to me like a crown over the two upright sides of an "N", absent the center slant of the "N". I guess this to be an "N" because the serifs are correctly placed for an "N". The center is missing for whatever the reason. I think this is a nice Luger and an interesting conversation piece. Jack Last edited by Yakman; 01-06-2020 at 05:17 PM.