First Luger, help needed

[Tonyt915]

Thanks for the add, was told there’s a plethora of knowledge here from an ARF member. Recently purchased my first Luger and trying to learn the history of it from the proof marks. The seller said it was inherited, and when he brought it to a gunsmith to get the value he was told it wasn’t numbers matching or original. So He listed it at 825 and I bought it thinking it was a shooter. Several of the members on ar forums agree it’s original numbers matching, so now I don’t know if it’s a collector or if I should shoot it. I did pull the firing pin out last night after watching Simpson LTD video on checking serial numbers and the pin doesn’t have have any markings, not sure if it’s supposed to be that way or it’s replaced.

[Tonyt915]

..

[Doubs]

Welcome to the forum. Your friend was correct; there are some extremely knowledgeable folks here.

Can you provide a look straight down on the top that clearly shows the date? Also a closer image of the proof marks on the right forward receiver. They look to be what are called "Peace Doves" and a Nazi era eagle.

While the numbers seem to be all matching, the barrel carries two marks that may indicate replacement. One is a Nazi era eagle and the other looks a lot like a Kiel proof house mark.

If the date is 1920, it may be a date stamp or a Weimar Republic property stamp. Seeing the date straight down will help determine that.

The firing pin would be correct for 1920. There were many inconsistencies post-WW1 and the firing pin not having a serial number is likely correct.

It's certainly an interesting Luger and for the price you paid you did just fine IMO.

[Karl]

The receiver date appears to be a 1920 property mark.

KFS

[Tonyt915]

Here are the two photos requested. Let me know if you need more

[Tonyt915]

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[Norme]

I'm almost certain the barrel is a replacement, the 5th photo shows clear clamp or vice marks on the receiver.
Norm

[Doubs]

The 1920 is neat enough to be a date stamp and the inspection/proof marks are those used in that time period. The 1920 property stamps were applied at unit level by armorers and are usually not that neatly done.

This is just my opinion. From the Nazi era eagle stamps, I think it was re-proved in the mid-1930's for some reason. It could be for a barrel replacement as Norm says.

[Tonyt915]

So would this have also been in WWII? thanks for the help btw. Ive always wanted a P08 and now im excited to learn the history and places its been.

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by Tonyt915

So would this have also been in WWII? thanks for the help btw. Ive always wanted a P08 and now im excited to learn the history and places its been.

Unless I'm misreading my source, the eagles make it 1936 ~ 1938.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Can someone point out the "stick wing" eagle? The only eagle I see on the barrel is on the left rear..a down swept eagle. Same as on the right receiver rail.

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Can someone point out the "stick wing" eagle? The only eagle I see on the barrel is on the left rear..a down swept eagle. Same as on the right receiver rail.

My mistake. I've corrected my remarks.

[Fla.Mallard]

"I don’t know if it’s a collector or if I should shoot it."

I shoot all of mine, collectors or not. After all, that's why they were made.

[Tonyt915]

True, but would be upset if I damaged it after it’s made it this long being original. I did order some repo grips, and MecGar mag. One of the sides is a little loose so I don’t want to crack the original grip. May order some other pieces that break and keep the originals safe.

[tomaustin]

be VERY careful with the grips......at that age, they will snap, crackle, and pop..........there are very nice journeyman replacements available, and as you said, put the set you have now into a safe location....many on this board are truly experts in the various areas of Lugers..... also the care and safe keeping of the wood.............welcome aboard....Tom

[ithacaartist]

I have the impression that police guns of that era didn't necessarily display a chamber date? What I deem to be its typical property stamp seems to wind up in a variety of places in relation to the breech above the blank chamber onto which it's been hand stamped. Admittedly, this one's on there nice and straight, all right, but it's located too far from the breech compared to what I think we'd expect from a chamber date. Here's a link to one on another thread, which obviously gives an extreme example of being located otherwise than a "normal" chamber date. http://forum.lugerforum.com/attachme...1&d=1575414347

I agree about the possibility of a barrel change. I didn't even notice the gouges and was going by the distinctly different color tones, frame v. bbl. Also, the finish of the top, leading corner of the barrel flange is worn less than that of the frame's similar corner? If replaced, it was fairly officially executed, with the new one re-marked, as would have probably been done by an armorer. How about a closeup of the witness marks on the barrel and frame? The vise-gouges hypothesis is suspect to me because there are no corresponding gouges on the other side.

The Parabellum is a robust, durable pistol by design. Nonetheless, things happen that bring to fruition the risks involved when shooting any collectible gun. Break a numbered part on a numbers matching gun, and its value takes a serious hit, as well as its history, perhaps more so. Your gun, though, so your choice.

Aftermarket grips, the MecGar mag are good steps to minimize your risks of this nature. The firing pin and extractor are other numbered parts commonly swapped out for shooting. The relieved/fluted firing pin style adopted around WWII (or maybe earlier?) is reputed to be safer.

[Tonyt915]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

I have the impression that police guns of that era didn't necessarily display a chamber date? What I deem to be its typical property stamp seems to wind up in a variety of places in relation to the breech above the blank chamber onto which it's been hand stamped. Admittedly, this one's on there nice and straight, all right, but it's located too far from the breech compared to what I think we'd expect from a chamber date. Here's a link to one on another thread, which obviously gives an extreme example of being located otherwise than a "normal" chamber date. http://forum.lugerforum.com/attachme...1&d=1575414347

I agree about the possibility of a barrel change. I didn't even notice the gouges and was going by the distinctly different color tones, frame v. bbl. Also, the finish of the top, leading corner of the barrel flange is worn less than that of the frame's similar corner? If replaced, it was fairly officially executed, with the new one re-marked, as would have probably been done by an armorer. How about a closeup of the witness marks on the barrel and frame? The vise-gouges hypothesis is suspect to me because there are no corresponding gouges on the other side.

The Parabellum is a robust, durable pistol by design. Nonetheless, things happen that bring to fruition the risks involved when shooting any collectible gun. Break a numbered part on a numbers matching gun, and its value takes a serious hit, as well as its history, perhaps more so. Your gun, though, so your choice.

Aftermarket grips, the MecGar mag are good steps to minimize your risks of this nature. The firing pin and extractor are other numbered parts commonly swapped out for shooting. The relieved/fluted firing pin style adopted around WWII (or maybe earlier?) is reputed to be safer.

Sorry for the dumb question, but what area of the barrel are "witness marks" located?

[mrerick]

gTony, welcome to the forum .

I think you have a Weimar era DWM Luger that was rebarrelled in the mid 1930's.

I think that the antler proof mark on the barrel may be from the Oberndorf proof house. The droop wing eagle points to the era of the rebarrel.

Is this in 7.65mm. The photo showing the muzzle is out of focus.

We publish a FAQ PDF document you may find useful. Just follow the FAQ links at the top of every page.

The witness mark is a strike across the barrel base and the receiver to indicate it's correct rotational position when it's installed.

The wood base magazine is also fragile. Try to find a Haneal Schmeisser magazine if you want to shoot the gun. They were made during the 1940's as well as after the war by the DDR (Ernst Thalmann).

[gunbugs]

The one thing I possibly see that might lead me to suspect a barrel replacement is the font on the first digit in the serial number,"3", on the barrel, appears to be slightly different in the top loop of the numeral than other spots on the gun, such as the left side of the receiver. Perhaps a good closeup of the front of the frame, in comparison to the bottom of the barrel would clear up the question.

[Tonyt915]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

I have the impression that police guns of that era didn't necessarily display a chamber date? What I deem to be its typical property stamp seems to wind up in a variety of places in relation to the breech above the blank chamber onto which it's been hand stamped. Admittedly, this one's on there nice and straight, all right, but it's located too far from the breech compared to what I think we'd expect from a chamber date. Here's a link to one on another thread, which obviously gives an extreme example of being located otherwise than a "normal" chamber date. http://forum.lugerforum.com/attachme...1&d=1575414347

I agree about the possibility of a barrel change. I didn't even notice the gouges and was going by the distinctly different color tones, frame v. bbl. Also, the finish of the top, leading corner of the barrel flange is worn less than that of the frame's similar corner? If replaced, it was fairly officially executed, with the new one re-marked, as would have probably been done by an armorer. How about a closeup of the witness marks on the barrel and frame? The vise-gouges hypothesis is suspect to me because there are no corresponding gouges on the other side.

The Parabellum is a robust, durable pistol by design. Nonetheless, things happen that bring to fruition the risks involved when shooting any collectible gun. Break a numbered part on a numbers matching gun, and its value takes a serious hit, as well as its history, perhaps more so. Your gun, though, so your choice.

Aftermarket grips, the MecGar mag are good steps to minimize your risks of this nature. The firing pin and extractor are other numbered parts commonly swapped out for shooting. The relieved/fluted firing pin style adopted around WWII (or maybe earlier?) is reputed to be safer.

Originally Posted by mrerick

gTony, welcome to the forum .

I think you have a Weimar era DWM Luger that was rebarrelled in the mid 1930's.

I think that the antler proof mark on the barrel may be from the Oberndorf proof house. The droop wing eagle points to the era of the rebarrel.

Is this in 7.65mm. The photo showing the muzzle is out of focus.

We publish a FAQ PDF document you may find useful. Just follow the FAQ links at the top of every page.

The witness mark is a strike across the barrel base and the receiver to indicate it's correct rotational position when it's installed.

The wood base magazine is also fragile. Try to find a Haneal Schmeisser magazine if you want to shoot the gun. They were made during the 1940's as well as after the war by the DDR (Ernst Thalmann).

Thanks, I will go take a picture of that area. it is a 9mm not a 7.65