Erfurt/DWM Parts Luger Project

Thor · 02-01-2021, 01:16 PM

Here is Wombat's old gun project I did from days of yore.

Thor · 02-01-2021, 01:19 PM

I believe the frame was from an Erfurt Luger- The frame rail on the right side appears slightly wider than a DWM with less edge bevels. Also the crown over script letter on the left rail by the side plate would be Erfurt I believe. The receiver also Erfurt by the the small Crown over RC on the Receiver as shown below.

Doubs · 02-01-2021, 01:49 PM

Beautiful work as usual by Thor.

An Erfurt frame should also have a crown/letter on the front of the trigger guard.

It's interesting that it appears to have had a hold open added. That's odd for a frame with a stock lug. The directive for the hold open came in May, 1913 while the stock lug directive was in August, 1913.

It's purely speculation, but could the frame have been from one of the pre-production Artillery test pistols? Commercial Lugers were made with the stock lug but only by DWM as Erfurt didn't make commercial guns.

The other possibility, as I see it, is that a repair was done to the hold open and the hole drilled then.

George Anderson · 02-01-2021, 02:47 PM

The small acceptance stamp on the left rail just in front of the side plate is a characteristic of a 1916 or later Erfurt.

Vlim · 02-01-2021, 03:04 PM

It was actually a nice example of a DDR reworked P08 a.k.a. a VoPo luger before the rework.

I wouldn't have touched it.

spangy · 02-01-2021, 03:39 PM

I have to agree with Vlim on this.
To me the raw beauty of the DDR reworked VoPo made this gun collectable in my mind.

While still beautiful after Thor's excellent work I feel the gun has lost an important part of its history.

JMHO

Thor · 02-01-2021, 05:02 PM

The Folks Polizei refinished it already and it was a parts gun from different Lugers, all I did was add to its history.

Doubs · 02-01-2021, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Anderson

The small acceptance stamp on the left rail just in front of the side plate is a characteristic of a 1916 or later Erfurt.

Interestingly, they appear on both of my 1914 Erfurt LP-08 Lugers.

Illustrations in Gortz & Sturgess do not show the crown/letter stamp on the left frame forward of the side plate on 1910 and 1911 examples so it seems the practice began later but at least as early as 1914.

Vlim · 02-01-2021, 05:19 PM

Quote:

The Folks Polizei refinished it already and it was a parts gun from different Lugers, all I did was add to its history.

Hi Ted, I disagree.

The Vopo is a known and documented example of a government refurbished variation. In this case you did not add to its history, but took some of it away.

Heinz · 02-02-2021, 11:10 AM

My opinion is that is was a VoPo with mismatched numbers and a bad blue job. It still has the same parts, the same numbers and a better blue job. I do not think the VoPo history has been altered, just added to. And it is more likely to survive going forward.
It was offered as an example of a members craftsmanship. It shows that well. I appreciate it being shown.
When an artillery shows up with a ground off stock flange, do we want to leave that alone as part of its history? Lots of decisions to be made on refinishing, and the fact that some folks are now collecting VoPos is just an input in that decision.

Vlim · 02-02-2021, 11:18 AM

Ted's workmanship is not under discussion. It is excellent.

A ground stock lug is the result of poor interpretation of post war US legislation. It cannot be compared to a legit state controlled and organized refurbishment and subsequent re-issue program.

This gun is now a refinished mismatched shooter and no longer a collectable VoPo. And I pity that.

Heinz · 02-02-2021, 01:07 PM

Vlim, I understand your position. Mine position is a VoPo Luger with mismatched numbers and a toggle receiver manufacturer mismatch, cannot be assumed to be a VoPo produced configuration when the original finished configuration has not been seen. Not having seen what it was before it was redone, it is a little difficult to say it was a nice example of an East German rework.

If it was nice, this may have been a questionable call, but no-one has asked what kind of shape it was in or if the mismatched parts appeared to belong the the post WW2 government rework. So, lets have a few facts before we tell somebody they messed up a nice example. I cannot make out the proof marks, the chamber marking or see any evidence beyond the black plastic grips that suggest its pedigree.

Vlim · 02-02-2021, 02:08 PM

Well, I handled quite a few and I see no real signs of it not being a VoPo. The peened out markings on the right side of the receiver point in the VoPo direction, defacement being done by Interarms in the 70s when the first batches were imported.

The grips are also a giveaway, of course.
The overall look of the DDR bluing and the hotchpotch of bits 'n pieces also point in that direction.

Kiwi · 02-02-2021, 02:12 PM

Thor changed a hideous re-blue into what it should look like
Great job.

Why would you want to preserve a crappy restoration because it was done under government auspices.

One bad rework followed by a very good rework.
The gun had been restored anyway.

I am not a big fan of the VoPo's cultural contribution to the world
That said I do have and am very fond of my East German Freiberger sextant

Doubs · 02-02-2021, 02:27 PM

I kind of have to agree with Heinz in that I saw no markings or indicators other than the grips and possibly the reblue to identify the Luger as Vopo. If it had been stamped with nice sunbursts/shields/numbers that were not obliterated, I might think otherwise. For anyone who wants a Vopo Luger, there are far better examples out there.

Just my opinion but I think it was an excellent choice for Thor's superb restoration.

Vlim · 02-02-2021, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Why would you want to preserve a crappy restoration because it was done under government auspices.

Because a government arsenal does not restore. A government refurbishes, a totally different game.

Plus this gun was not restored. It was refinished. Also not the same thing.

Heinz · 02-02-2021, 04:07 PM

I agree with Vlim’s basic point on preserving government refurbished guns. I am actually a fan of guns that show service in two wars. I have a 1917 Enfield and a 1917 S&W 45 with rework marks and replaced parts. I would not mess with either of them.
My point was, if you do not know the condition it was in before the reblue plus whatever else was done to make it work, you should not presume the new work degraded the gun.

DonVoigt · 02-02-2021, 11:38 PM

I see two "before" pictures in the first two posts- or else I'm badly mistaken.

I have to agree with Vlim, it was a legitimate variation before;now is is a pretty luger.
It is entirely the owner's prerogative to do whatever he wants to to the pistol.

Every original pistol that gets refinished only makes those left a little scarcer. Since "Vopo" lugers are relatively plentiful, no real harm done-
but if it were a truly "rare" luger- I'd be totally torqued!

Heinz · 02-03-2021, 12:21 AM

I looked at it on the computer instead of the cell phone. All the charm of a Chinese Mauser but likely original. Now it is a pretty shooter.

I stand corrected.

Kiwi · 02-03-2021, 12:42 PM

Vlim, I could get into a whole conversation about semantics; restore, refinish, refurbish.

I will settle for I am a shooter who happens to own a Luger (or 2)
You are a collector who probably knows more about Lugers than I will ever know

Different values, and I appreciate your knowledge

02-01-2021, 01:16 PM	#1
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Erfurt/DWM Parts Luger Project Here is Wombat's old gun project I did from days of yore. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

02-01-2021, 01:19 PM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I believe the frame was from an Erfurt Luger- The frame rail on the right side appears slightly wider than a DWM with less edge bevels. Also the crown over script letter on the left rail by the side plate would be Erfurt I believe. The receiver also Erfurt by the the small Crown over RC on the Receiver as shown below. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

02-01-2021, 03:39 PM	#6
spangy Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 617 Thanks: 3,065 Thanked 1,057 Times in 429 Posts	I have to agree with Vlim on this. To me the raw beauty of the DDR reworked VoPo made this gun collectable in my mind. While still beautiful after Thor's excellent work I feel the gun has lost an important part of its history. JMHO __________________ Whoever said that "money can't buy you happiness" never bought a Luger. WTB - Take Down Lever & Trigger Plate (#90) for an Imperial Artillery.

02-01-2021, 05:02 PM	#7
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	The Folks Polizei refinished it already and it was a parts gun from different Lugers, all I did was add to its history. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

02-02-2021, 11:38 PM	#18
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	I see two "before" pictures in the first two posts- or else I'm badly mistaken. I have to agree with Vlim, it was a legitimate variation before;now is is a pretty luger. It is entirely the owner's prerogative to do whatever he wants to to the pistol. Every original pistol that gets refinished only makes those left a little scarcer. Since "Vopo" lugers are relatively plentiful, no real harm done- but if it were a truly "rare" luger- I'd be totally torqued! __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

02-01-2021, 01:49 PM	#3
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,692 Times in 555 Posts	Beautiful work as usual by Thor. An Erfurt frame should also have a crown/letter on the front of the trigger guard. It's interesting that it appears to have had a hold open added. That's odd for a frame with a stock lug. The directive for the hold open came in May, 1913 while the stock lug directive was in August, 1913. It's purely speculation, but could the frame have been from one of the pre-production Artillery test pistols? Commercial Lugers were made with the stock lug but only by DWM as Erfurt didn't make commercial guns. The other possibility, as I see it, is that a repair was done to the hold open and the hole drilled then.

02-01-2021, 02:47 PM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	The small acceptance stamp on the left rail just in front of the side plate is a characteristic of a 1916 or later Erfurt.

02-01-2021, 03:04 PM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	It was actually a nice example of a DDR reworked P08 a.k.a. a VoPo luger before the rework. I wouldn't have touched it.

02-02-2021, 11:10 AM	#10
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	My opinion is that is was a VoPo with mismatched numbers and a bad blue job. It still has the same parts, the same numbers and a better blue job. I do not think the VoPo history has been altered, just added to. And it is more likely to survive going forward. It was offered as an example of a members craftsmanship. It shows that well. I appreciate it being shown. When an artillery shows up with a ground off stock flange, do we want to leave that alone as part of its history? Lots of decisions to be made on refinishing, and the fact that some folks are now collecting VoPos is just an input in that decision.

02-02-2021, 11:18 AM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Ted's workmanship is not under discussion. It is excellent. A ground stock lug is the result of poor interpretation of post war US legislation. It cannot be compared to a legit state controlled and organized refurbishment and subsequent re-issue program. This gun is now a refinished mismatched shooter and no longer a collectable VoPo. And I pity that.

02-02-2021, 01:07 PM	#12
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Vlim, I understand your position. Mine position is a VoPo Luger with mismatched numbers and a toggle receiver manufacturer mismatch, cannot be assumed to be a VoPo produced configuration when the original finished configuration has not been seen. Not having seen what it was before it was redone, it is a little difficult to say it was a nice example of an East German rework. If it was nice, this may have been a questionable call, but no-one has asked what kind of shape it was in or if the mismatched parts appeared to belong the the post WW2 government rework. So, lets have a few facts before we tell somebody they messed up a nice example. I cannot make out the proof marks, the chamber marking or see any evidence beyond the black plastic grips that suggest its pedigree.

02-02-2021, 02:08 PM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Well, I handled quite a few and I see no real signs of it not being a VoPo. The peened out markings on the right side of the receiver point in the VoPo direction, defacement being done by Interarms in the 70s when the first batches were imported. The grips are also a giveaway, of course. The overall look of the DDR bluing and the hotchpotch of bits 'n pieces also point in that direction.

02-02-2021, 02:12 PM	#14
Kiwi User Join Date: Mar 2019 Location: Wrong side of the Delaware river Posts: 309 Thanks: 216 Thanked 436 Times in 173 Posts	Thor changed a hideous re-blue into what it should look like Great job. Why would you want to preserve a crappy restoration because it was done under government auspices. One bad rework followed by a very good rework. The gun had been restored anyway. I am not a big fan of the VoPo's cultural contribution to the world That said I do have and am very fond of my East German Freiberger sextant

02-02-2021, 02:27 PM	#15
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,692 Times in 555 Posts	I kind of have to agree with Heinz in that I saw no markings or indicators other than the grips and possibly the reblue to identify the Luger as Vopo. If it had been stamped with nice sunbursts/shields/numbers that were not obliterated, I might think otherwise. For anyone who wants a Vopo Luger, there are far better examples out there. Just my opinion but I think it was an excellent choice for Thor's superb restoration.

02-02-2021, 04:07 PM	#17
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	I agree with Vlim’s basic point on preserving government refurbished guns. I am actually a fan of guns that show service in two wars. I have a 1917 Enfield and a 1917 S&W 45 with rework marks and replaced parts. I would not mess with either of them. My point was, if you do not know the condition it was in before the reblue plus whatever else was done to make it work, you should not presume the new work degraded the gun.

02-03-2021, 12:21 AM	#19
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	I looked at it on the computer instead of the cell phone. All the charm of a Chinese Mauser but likely original. Now it is a pretty shooter. I stand corrected.

02-03-2021, 12:42 PM	#20
Kiwi User Join Date: Mar 2019 Location: Wrong side of the Delaware river Posts: 309 Thanks: 216 Thanked 436 Times in 173 Posts	Vlim, I could get into a whole conversation about semantics; restore, refinish, refurbish. I will settle for I am a shooter who happens to own a Luger (or 2) You are a collector who probably knows more about Lugers than I will ever know Different values, and I appreciate your knowledge