1938 Erfurt?

Military Engineer · 03-17-2021, 08:04 PM

Hi,

Hope all is well. I've been a member of the forum for a while, but haven't been on in quite some time. Hoping now to avail myself of the expertise here.

I've come across a Luger that I'm having a hard time identifying because the parts seem to be a mishmash a bit. He is asking a little over $1000. I just wanted to get an opinion, on a number of things if possible. Yes, I will be inspecting it; he just lives 2 hours away so I wanted to have an idea before I go up and actually see it. He is confidant and is willing to let me shoot a mag or two before purchase.

Just so we're clear, I've tried iding it using "The Standard Catalog of Luger", by Aarron Price, 2006 edition (ISBN 13: 978-0-89689-411-2)

Seller says 1938 Erfurt Luger and that by all accounts, he is the 3rd owner (He is in his 70s, got it from a friend also in their 70s who got it in Germany from an older German gentlemen). The manual says Erfurt stopped making them in 1918 and was involved in the reworks [consider the double date Lugers], but there is no indication that it was necessarily reworked by Erfurt or anyone else.

Is there a reason that the bolt block/extractor would be replaced with one 20 years older?

Opinions on general appearance?

Next, I'm having trouble with the proof marks and I'm hoping that someone out there can ID them. Center looks like E/63, and right looks like the Nazi mid-acceptance mark (signifiying '37-'39 make) but I'm not experienced enough to say. Any suggestions? What would the one on the left be and is there a reason it would be a 2nd E/63?

Bakelite grips are indicative of a Black Widow, but the other markers for a BW don't seem to be there. Grip replacement?

The price may very well be fine, or it may be too high, so I'm open to input. My concern is just identifying this. I'm thinking a 1938 Mauser Police issue, but I'm too new to be that specific or confident.

Any suggestions from the experts?

George Anderson · 03-17-2021, 08:16 PM

It's a mismatched 1938 Mauser.

Military Engineer · 03-17-2021, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Anderson

It's a mismatched 1938 Mauser.

Makes sense. Definitely appreciate it. I was wondering about the toggle condition and left side panel. It has a sort of pitted / overly worn appearance. Would that concern you if you were looking for a shooter grade?

spangy · 03-17-2021, 08:51 PM

Quit the parts mix Military Engineer

The double straight eagle/63 and mid era Nazi proofs marks are correct for a 1938 Luger.
The Erfurt toggle is an add on/repair and off a much older Luger.
The grips are not from this 1938 gun and may be from a BW, which this gun is not.

As long as it all works it could be a good shooter but make sure you check the bore and have a good look around for cracks anywhere on the gun before firing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Military Engineer

I was wondering about the toggle condition and left side panel. It has a sort of pitted / overly worn appearance. Would that concern you if you were looking for a shooter grade?

No ... it would not bother me and since its a shooter the pitting is easily fixed if it bothers you that much

Just my humble opinion so don't shoot the messenger please

Military Engineer · 03-17-2021, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spangy

Quit the parts mix Military Engineer

The double straight eagle and mid era Nazi proofs marks are correct for a 1938 Luger.
The Erfurt toggle is an add on and off a much older Luger.
The grips are not from the 1938 gun and may be from a BW, which this gun is not IMO

As long as it all works it could be an good shooter but make sure you check the bore and have a good look around for cracks anywhere on the gun before firing.

No ... it would not bother me and since its a shooter the pitting is easily fixed if it bothers you that much

Just my humble opinion so don't shoot the messenger please

Thanks much. I didn't think it was a BW, but since the toggle is mismatched, there's no way to tell for certain.

On the toggle replacement....was that something common to Lugers? I heard that extractors tended to be an issue, but bolt blocks?

Thanks again,
Mark

And no...I don't shoot messengers.

spangy · 03-17-2021, 09:40 PM

There are tremendous forces applied to the Lugers toggle assembly when fired.
Over time this can lead to cracks forming on toggle joints, springs, breech blocks, firing pins etc.
So in a well used Luger, particularly during wars toggle, extractor and spring replacements were common ... not so much a concern in a weekend shooter but it still happens.

Again just my humble opinion.
Be safe and have fun.

P.S. - thanks for not shooting me

Mac Cat · 03-17-2021, 10:48 PM

That IS a lot of money for such a mismatched shooter, in my experience.
I would hope the seller will demonstrate that it fires safely, before you take possession.
But, if it works as advertised, you should enjoy it a lot.
That gun has already been through a lot!

Military Engineer · 03-17-2021, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac Cat

That IS a lot of money for such a mismatched shooter, in my experience.
I would hope the seller will demonstrate that it fires safely, before you take possession.
But, if it works as advertised, you should enjoy it a lot.
That gun has already been through a lot!

I did tell the seller I wanted to shoot it and he didn't hesitate. He told me it shoots fine and is allowing me to shoot a few mags through it.

I'm also going to do a tear down and inspect, especially since the bolt block is different and 20 years older.

The manual I was using had prices range from $650-$1200, so that wasn't helpful much, especially since I'm guessing it was a Mauser.

spangy · 03-18-2021, 12:05 AM

I have a 1938 DWM mismatched shooter myself Military Engineer.
It also had a deeply pitted and gouged 'skirt' and trigger plate much worse than yours.
A little TLC and I think it looks pretty good.
Tell you what ... I wouldn't sell it for the world.
It has an awesome clean bore with excellent rifling and shoots spot on target with tight groups.
I love it.

rhuff · 03-18-2021, 03:48 PM

If this parts Luger has a good bore and functions 100%, then it would be a good shooter for you. That price is maybe a little high, unless it comes with a holster and a few mags. Enjoy!!

Karl · 03-18-2021, 06:08 PM

I see a stamp adjacent to the canon serial number and on the frame below the takedown lever - looks like four touching circles forming a square. Are the grips "black widow" grips or are they VOPO grips? Could the stamp be an East German mark? Looks like the Erfurt toggle link has the serial number X'ed out. Could this be a VOPO Luger?

KFS

Vlim · 03-18-2021, 07:10 PM

It's a Vopo, but the grips are not the typical East-German ones.

The side plate is East German new manufacture.
Check if the barrel is crown/N proofed at the bottom.

Military Engineer · 03-18-2021, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl

I see a stamp adjacent to the canon serial number and on the frame below the takedown lever - looks like four touching circles forming a square. Are the grips "black widow" grips or are they VOPO grips? Could the stamp be an East German mark? Looks like the Erfurt toggle link has the serial number X'ed out. Could this be a VOPO Luger?

KFS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

It's a Vopo, but the grips are not the typical East-German ones.

The side plate is East German new manufacture.
Check if the barrel is crown/N proofed at the bottom.

I never even checked to see if it was a VOPO. As far as the grips go, I'm not certain which grips they are. I'm going to check.

I texted back and forth a bit with him today...he said he has not one but two matching magazines. Serialed and they are a matched set. We'll see. They're period correct, with aluminum bases and he indicated they are stamped the same way.

I'm curious about how one knows that the side plate is new, East German manufacture?

I also noticed the little dots forming a square on the frame and upper receiver. I didn't see anything about that in my manual, so does anyone have any idea on that?

Military Engineer · 03-18-2021, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

It's a Vopo, but the grips are not the typical East-German ones.

The side plate is East German new manufacture.
Check if the barrel is crown/N proofed at the bottom.

I just looked...did you mean a "Vono Rework"? If so, the receiver is not stamped such.

If you did mean VONO, can you give me some insight into what that means?

Bill_in_VA · 03-18-2021, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Military Engineer

I just looked...did you mean a "Vono Rework"? If so, the receiver is not stamped such.

If you did mean VONO, can you give me some insight into what that means?

VoPo - Volks Polizei - East German state police

mrerick · 03-18-2021, 10:14 PM

Remember, it's in the nature of the Germans to waste nothing.

Parts from any era or manufacturer could be hand fitted during a repair or refurbishment.

If it shoots well, enjoy it as a great shooter with a little mixed heritage.

Download our FAQ PDF document. You'll enjoy the reference material.

Military Engineer · 03-18-2021, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

Remember, it's in the nature of the Germans to waste nothing.

Parts from any era or manufacturer could be hand fitted during a repair or refurbishment.

If it shoots well, enjoy it as a great shooter with a little mixed heritage.

Download our FAQ PDF document. You'll enjoy the reference material.

I will do that. Thanks. Question for you: Is the refeence material I've been using reliable? It's listed in the original posting.

Military Engineer · 03-18-2021, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

Remember, it's in the nature of the Germans to waste nothing.

Parts from any era or manufacturer could be hand fitted during a repair or refurbishment.

If it shoots well, enjoy it as a great shooter with a little mixed heritage.

Download our FAQ PDF document. You'll enjoy the reference material.

Where might I find it? I was looking for it...but I'm new to the site, so I'm not sure where to look.

spangy · 03-18-2021, 11:49 PM

FAQ is in the menu on the right hand top of any page bro ... here is the link.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=13121

Enjoy ... its excellent source reading

Vlim · 03-19-2021, 03:13 AM

The little dots are peened out East-German markings. They were removed after import in order to disguise the fact the guns were imported from a prohibited source at the time.

Interarms imported several batches, paid for in US currency that was much needed by East-Germany at the time. The guns were basically smuggled across the iron curtain in the 1970s.

03-17-2021, 08:04 PM	#1
Military Engineer User Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 41 Thanks: 9 Thanked 37 Times in 12 Posts	1938 Erfurt? Hi, Hope all is well. I've been a member of the forum for a while, but haven't been on in quite some time. Hoping now to avail myself of the expertise here. I've come across a Luger that I'm having a hard time identifying because the parts seem to be a mishmash a bit. He is asking a little over $1000. I just wanted to get an opinion, on a number of things if possible. Yes, I will be inspecting it; he just lives 2 hours away so I wanted to have an idea before I go up and actually see it. He is confidant and is willing to let me shoot a mag or two before purchase. Just so we're clear, I've tried iding it using "The Standard Catalog of Luger", by Aarron Price, 2006 edition (ISBN 13: 978-0-89689-411-2) Seller says 1938 Erfurt Luger and that by all accounts, he is the 3rd owner (He is in his 70s, got it from a friend also in their 70s who got it in Germany from an older German gentlemen). The manual says Erfurt stopped making them in 1918 and was involved in the reworks [consider the double date Lugers], but there is no indication that it was necessarily reworked by Erfurt or anyone else. Is there a reason that the bolt block/extractor would be replaced with one 20 years older? Opinions on general appearance? Next, I'm having trouble with the proof marks and I'm hoping that someone out there can ID them. Center looks like E/63, and right looks like the Nazi mid-acceptance mark (signifiying '37-'39 make) but I'm not experienced enough to say. Any suggestions? What would the one on the left be and is there a reason it would be a 2nd E/63? Bakelite grips are indicative of a Black Widow, but the other markers for a BW don't seem to be there. Grip replacement? The price may very well be fine, or it may be too high, so I'm open to input. My concern is just identifying this. I'm thinking a 1938 Mauser Police issue, but I'm too new to be that specific or confident. Any suggestions from the experts? Attached Thumbnails

03-17-2021, 09:40 PM	#6
spangy Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 617 Thanks: 3,065 Thanked 1,057 Times in 429 Posts	There are tremendous forces applied to the Lugers toggle assembly when fired. Over time this can lead to cracks forming on toggle joints, springs, breech blocks, firing pins etc. So in a well used Luger, particularly during wars toggle, extractor and spring replacements were common ... not so much a concern in a weekend shooter but it still happens. Again just my humble opinion. Be safe and have fun. P.S. - thanks for not shooting me __________________ Whoever said that "money can't buy you happiness" never bought a Luger. WTB - Take Down Lever & Trigger Plate (#90) for an Imperial Artillery.

03-18-2021, 12:05 AM	#9
spangy Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 617 Thanks: 3,065 Thanked 1,057 Times in 429 Posts	I have a 1938 DWM mismatched shooter myself Military Engineer. It also had a deeply pitted and gouged 'skirt' and trigger plate much worse than yours. A little TLC and I think it looks pretty good. Tell you what ... I wouldn't sell it for the world. It has an awesome clean bore with excellent rifling and shoots spot on target with tight groups. I love it. __________________ Whoever said that "money can't buy you happiness" never bought a Luger. WTB - Take Down Lever & Trigger Plate (#90) for an Imperial Artillery.

03-18-2021, 03:48 PM	#10
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,291 Thanks: 2,709 Thanked 972 Times in 717 Posts	If this parts Luger has a good bore and functions 100%, then it would be a good shooter for you. That price is maybe a little high, unless it comes with a holster and a few mags. Enjoy!! __________________ Need DWM breechblock #21

03-18-2021, 10:14 PM	#16
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Remember, it's in the nature of the Germans to waste nothing. Parts from any era or manufacturer could be hand fitted during a repair or refurbishment. If it shoots well, enjoy it as a great shooter with a little mixed heritage. Download our FAQ PDF document. You'll enjoy the reference material. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-17-2021, 08:16 PM	#2
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	It's a mismatched 1938 Mauser.

03-17-2021, 10:48 PM	#7
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 733 Thanks: 2,100 Thanked 610 Times in 329 Posts	That IS a lot of money for such a mismatched shooter, in my experience. I would hope the seller will demonstrate that it fires safely, before you take possession. But, if it works as advertised, you should enjoy it a lot. That gun has already been through a lot!

03-18-2021, 06:08 PM	#11
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 522 Thanks: 0 Thanked 271 Times in 118 Posts	I see a stamp adjacent to the canon serial number and on the frame below the takedown lever - looks like four touching circles forming a square. Are the grips "black widow" grips or are they VOPO grips? Could the stamp be an East German mark? Looks like the Erfurt toggle link has the serial number X'ed out. Could this be a VOPO Luger? KFS

03-18-2021, 07:10 PM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	It's a Vopo, but the grips are not the typical East-German ones. The side plate is East German new manufacture. Check if the barrel is crown/N proofed at the bottom.

03-18-2021, 11:49 PM	#19
spangy Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 617 Thanks: 3,065 Thanked 1,057 Times in 429 Posts	FAQ is in the menu on the right hand top of any page bro ... here is the link. http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=13121 Enjoy ... its excellent source reading __________________ Whoever said that "money can't buy you happiness" never bought a Luger. WTB - Take Down Lever & Trigger Plate (#90) for an Imperial Artillery.

03-19-2021, 03:13 AM	#20
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	The little dots are peened out East-German markings. They were removed after import in order to disguise the fact the guns were imported from a prohibited source at the time. Interarms imported several batches, paid for in US currency that was much needed by East-Germany at the time. The guns were basically smuggled across the iron curtain in the 1970s.