Spandau toggle link

ken d · 02-17-2003, 12:34 PM

Spandau toggle link on EBAY #2159864945. Any comments?

Regards

Ken D

Edward Tinker · 02-17-2003, 01:39 PM

Most of the info I have read disputes that Spandaus are real.

lugerholsterrepair · 02-17-2003, 08:21 PM

ED, Ken, I believe my Luger mentor, Howard J Nickle when he said he owned one said Spandau Luger in 1946. He is 84 years old and told me this twenty years ago. Why would they show up if not that there were a few made? 1946 is an odd time to start boosting Lugers. Jerry Burney

Edward Tinker · 02-17-2003, 08:44 PM

I have heard this a couple of times, and Jerry, I really don't know.

I would take the word from you stating that your friend and mentor believed they were real than just conjecture. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

ken d · 02-18-2003, 12:50 PM

All:

I believe Shattuck advertised one a while back. I handled one at a Natl Gun Day Show, a year ago, whether it was authenic or not, I have no ideal I believe the price was $12.000. The seller of the toggle mentions the blue appears to have been removed from the Spandau marking??. With the price of the Luger; the $50.00 toggle may be as close to a Spandau as I will get.

Regards

Ken D

Ron Wood · 02-18-2003, 12:53 PM

Several years back (about 1996 I think) NAPCA had a show in Odessa Texas. The emphasis was on Lugers. On one table they had six Spandaus lined up in a row. I think that at the time that was all the known Spandaus but one.

ken d · 02-18-2003, 01:01 PM

Ron:

Were all the Spandaus owned by the same person or were they just displayed togather.

Thanks

Ken D

Ron Wood · 02-18-2003, 01:28 PM

They were owned by six different people. The show director had coordinated with NAPCA members to bring all the guns to one place for the display. The only two people whom I knew for sure each owned one of the Spandaus were Ralph Shattuck and Mike Morris.

Edward Tinker · 02-18-2003, 01:36 PM

Did you look them over Ron?

Were they consistent, look the same etc?

(like I said, nothing to go on except the conflicting parts in several books)

Ron Wood · 02-18-2003, 02:00 PM

Didn't pick any of them up and handle them, but looked closely at them as they were displayed on a stand and you could see both sides and the top. I was not then, and still am not, a Spandau expert but they all looked pretty much the same to me, varying only in condition. I do seem to recall that they all had the Crown/K proof at the rear of the forward link right beside the two digit serial number. The link posted on ebay does not have this characteristic. My memory may be in error but I would not lay out big bucks for the link being auctioned.

John Sabato · 02-19-2003, 07:43 AM

This graphic below shows the alleged Spandau toggle link in comparison with both Erfurt toggles and illustrations of two types of Spandau toggle link examples from Gerard Henrotin's e-book "The Luger Producers"...(highly recommended by me for Luger reading)

Notice that the link in question has a serial number stamp that more closely resembles the serial number placement used on an Erfurt Toggle, and that there are other Spandau example marks that are no where to be seen.

There also appears to be present what looks to me like a crown/N in a place where there would not normally be on one of the Spandau links (that were used for the illustrations in Henrotin's e-book.

FWIW, IMNSHO, I believe that this was an Erfurt toggle link that has been welded, ground and engraved with the letters for Spandau. This would account for the stamp being white instead of the same color and consistency of the crown and serial number digits. There are also inconsistent polishing marks present(as shown in the photo of the link on auction). Vertical marks over the crown/N and horizontal marks over the SPANDAU... A little amateurish looking to me... not something I would expect to come out of a German government arsenal.

anyway...that is my $0.02

ken d · 02-19-2003, 12:16 PM

All:

Thanks for the comments, I agree the absence of the crown/k and other aberrations make it suspect.

Regards

Ken D

Pete Ebbink · 02-19-2003, 12:41 PM

Mr. Robert B. Marvin put out a small pamphlet/booklet in 1972 titled "The Identification and Analysis of Luger Proof Marks".

I believe. Mr. Marvin is still alive and may live in Florida.

On page 69 he writes : "..This Luger DOES exist. It is authentic, though it IS also mis-understood. We believe that the Spandau was produced for use at the Spandau prison, and made up, mostly, from parts secured from other sources. There are other theories on this too, however...".

On pages 34 and 36 he does show photos of Spandau toggles with and without the crown/k stamping...and goes on to state that all the Spandau lugers shown in his booklet appeared to have their stampings stamped and not engraved.

I am not sure how Mr. Marvin's theory held up to date...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Thor · 02-19-2003, 01:55 PM

Mr Marvin is unfortunately deceased. I bought my copy from his children who told me.

sambuscemi · 02-20-2003, 04:51 PM

If it matters guys, I emailed the seller of this suspect toggle and asked about the Spandau lettering and I was told that it was engraved on and not rolled stamped or pressed stamped in. Hope that helps. And that specific area of the toggle was missing its bluing.

Walley · 02-21-2003, 08:19 AM

John Walter in the Luger book page 249:
"SPANDAU. On the toggle-links of P.08, beneath a crown;applied to the few guns assembled(?) in the Spandau factory in 1918. The design differs disecernibly frp, the Erfurt pattern(q.v.)".
Any comments ?

Thor · 02-21-2003, 08:51 AM

It would be interesting to see this link from the side or just a side view slightly higher than the top to check for flatness of the top of the link.

friendlyfred · 04-28-2007, 01:55 AM

I own the spandau that was owned by Ralph Schattuck.
I am thinking of selling it but for this thread, I will post some pictures of an authentic Spandau for everyone's perusal.

I have it posted for sale on the sales forum and will also post pictures there.

I will try to take some pix tomorrow if I have time. I am NOT trying very hard to sell it.

Fred Pack

John Sabato · 04-30-2007, 11:49 AM

Welcome to the Lugerforum Fred... We look forward to the chance to examine some good photographs of your Spandau Luger...

friendlyfred · 04-30-2007, 01:57 PM

Pictures of Spandau #27 are posted on the sales portion of this forum.

Best regards,
Fred

02-17-2003, 12:34 PM	#1
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Spandau toggle link Spandau toggle link on EBAY #2159864945. Any comments? Regards Ken D

02-17-2003, 08:21 PM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	ED, Ken, I believe my Luger mentor, Howard J Nickle when he said he owned one said Spandau Luger in 1946. He is 84 years old and told me this twenty years ago. Why would they show up if not that there were a few made? 1946 is an odd time to start boosting Lugers. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-17-2003, 08:44 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	I have heard this a couple of times, and Jerry, I really don't know. I would take the word from you stating that your friend and mentor believed they were real than just conjecture. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-18-2003, 12:53 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Several years back (about 1996 I think) NAPCA had a show in Odessa Texas. The emphasis was on Lugers. On one table they had six Spandaus lined up in a row. I think that at the time that was all the known Spandaus but one. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-18-2003, 01:28 PM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	They were owned by six different people. The show director had coordinated with NAPCA members to bring all the guns to one place for the display. The only two people whom I knew for sure each owned one of the Spandaus were Ralph Shattuck and Mike Morris. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-17-2003, 01:39 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Most of the info I have read disputes that Spandaus are real. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-18-2003, 12:50 PM	#5
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	All: I believe Shattuck advertised one a while back. I handled one at a Natl Gun Day Show, a year ago, whether it was authenic or not, I have no ideal I believe the price was $12.000. The seller of the toggle mentions the blue appears to have been removed from the Spandau marking??. With the price of the Luger; the $50.00 toggle may be as close to a Spandau as I will get. Regards Ken D

02-18-2003, 01:01 PM	#7
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Ron: Were all the Spandaus owned by the same person or were they just displayed togather. Thanks Ken D

02-18-2003, 01:36 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Did you look them over Ron? Were they consistent, look the same etc? (like I said, nothing to go on except the conflicting parts in several books) __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-18-2003, 02:00 PM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Didn't pick any of them up and handle them, but looked closely at them as they were displayed on a stand and you could see both sides and the top. I was not then, and still am not, a Spandau expert but they all looked pretty much the same to me, varying only in condition. I do seem to recall that they all had the Crown/K proof at the rear of the forward link right beside the two digit serial number. The link posted on ebay does not have this characteristic. My memory may be in error but I would not lay out big bucks for the link being auctioned. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-19-2003, 07:43 AM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	This graphic below shows the alleged Spandau toggle link in comparison with both Erfurt toggles and illustrations of two types of Spandau toggle link examples from Gerard Henrotin's e-book "The Luger Producers"...(highly recommended by me for Luger reading) Notice that the link in question has a serial number stamp that more closely resembles the serial number placement used on an Erfurt Toggle, and that there are other Spandau example marks that are no where to be seen. There also appears to be present what looks to me like a crown/N in a place where there would not normally be on one of the Spandau links (that were used for the illustrations in Henrotin's e-book. FWIW, IMNSHO, I believe that this was an Erfurt toggle link that has been welded, ground and engraved with the letters for Spandau. This would account for the stamp being white instead of the same color and consistency of the crown and serial number digits. There are also inconsistent polishing marks present(as shown in the photo of the link on auction). Vertical marks over the crown/N and horizontal marks over the SPANDAU... A little amateurish looking to me... not something I would expect to come out of a German government arsenal. anyway...that is my $0.02 __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-19-2003, 12:16 PM	#12
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	All: Thanks for the comments, I agree the absence of the crown/k and other aberrations make it suspect. Regards Ken D

02-19-2003, 12:41 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Mr. Robert B. Marvin put out a small pamphlet/booklet in 1972 titled "The Identification and Analysis of Luger Proof Marks". I believe. Mr. Marvin is still alive and may live in Florida. On page 69 he writes : "..This Luger DOES exist. It is authentic, though it IS also mis-understood. We believe that the Spandau was produced for use at the Spandau prison, and made up, mostly, from parts secured from other sources. There are other theories on this too, however...". On pages 34 and 36 he does show photos of Spandau toggles with and without the crown/k stamping...and goes on to state that all the Spandau lugers shown in his booklet appeared to have their stampings stamped and not engraved. I am not sure how Mr. Marvin's theory held up to date... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-19-2003, 01:55 PM	#14
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Mr Marvin is unfortunately deceased. I bought my copy from his children who told me. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

02-20-2003, 04:51 PM	#15
sambuscemi User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 192 Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 4 Posts	If it matters guys, I emailed the seller of this suspect toggle and asked about the Spandau lettering and I was told that it was engraved on and not rolled stamped or pressed stamped in. Hope that helps. And that specific area of the toggle was missing its bluing.

02-21-2003, 08:19 AM	#16
Walley New User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John Walter in the Luger book page 249: "SPANDAU. On the toggle-links of P.08, beneath a crown;applied to the few guns assembled(?) in the Spandau factory in 1918. The design differs disecernibly frp, the Erfurt pattern(q.v.)". Any comments ?

02-21-2003, 08:51 AM	#17
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	It would be interesting to see this link from the side or just a side view slightly higher than the top to check for flatness of the top of the link. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

04-28-2007, 01:55 AM	#18
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Spandau #27 I own the spandau that was owned by Ralph Schattuck. I am thinking of selling it but for this thread, I will post some pictures of an authentic Spandau for everyone's perusal. I have it posted for sale on the sales forum and will also post pictures there. I will try to take some pix tomorrow if I have time. I am NOT trying very hard to sell it. Fred Pack

04-30-2007, 11:49 AM	#19
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Welcome to the Lugerforum Fred... We look forward to the chance to examine some good photographs of your Spandau Luger... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-30-2007, 01:57 PM	#20
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pictures of Spandau #27 are posted on the sales portion of this forum. Best regards, Fred