My Second Luger

cruzans · 09-13-2022, 09:25 AM

Took a year to get, here's the backstory, any thoughts?
A friend of mine who is in Madrid purchased this directly from a retired Spanish military officer who says that his father was in the Spanish Civil War and picked this up on the battlefield and it has been in his family ever since. His story for the date code and proofs being "matrixed" out is that Hitler sent arms to Franco which was "illegal" at the time, so dates and proofs were matrixed out to hide documentation of manufacture, etc. You can still make out the last number in the date code - a "6" so 1936.
Numbers all match including magazine.
Any thoughts? My friend is working on getting the retired officer to write a letter explaining the history - I just thought that would be cool.
Knowing my friend purchased directly from this gentleman in Spain I have no reason to doubt the story.......

Kiwi · 09-13-2022, 09:40 AM

Wow, those XXX's would be a major problem with the ATF here in the USA

cruzans · 09-13-2022, 10:08 AM

ATF along with Spanish authorities all had to approve the export/import so apparently, they were ok with it - lol.

Major Tom · 09-13-2022, 11:20 AM

What a unique pistol! I need one!

Roadster 02 · 09-13-2022, 11:33 AM

Alway's has to be someone that mentions the ATF. Never fails.

Mac Cat · 09-13-2022, 03:28 PM

It's a trophy for revisionist history

cruzans · 09-13-2022, 08:10 PM

^^now you've got me sitting here wondering what the heck that means - lol.

Peter S · 09-13-2022, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruzans

Numbers all match including magazine.

As long as the serial number is still there, it should not be a problem.

jeb111 · 09-14-2022, 11:10 AM

That is a very interesting Luger. I would love for you to be able to acquire some written documentation from the previous owner. Also more pictures would be great if you don’t mind. I’m no expert on the Spanish civil war but I don’t know why the date and proofs would need to have been hidden, it was no secret that Germany was supplying Franco with arms and personnel. I wonder which side your friend’s friend was fighting on? Pretty cool and thanks for posting!
Jim

Mac Cat · 09-14-2022, 12:03 PM

Quote:

^^now you've got me sitting here wondering what the heck that means - lol.

The whole secret date and manufacturing codes the Nazi's insisted on, leading up to WW-2, was incredible enough. So, for someone in Spain to cross out the date code and acceptance stamps seems futile. It wouldn't fool anyone. The Luger was already a well recognized German icon by that point, not to mention a sky full of German airplanes and bombers during the Spanish civil war (1946-1939), which was probably over by the time this gun arrived.

My guess is that someone wanted all the references to Nazi Germany covered up on that pistol. There is just no way to hide its origin, but covering up the symbols made somebody just feel better.

I'm not doubting your story at all and I hope you can get a first hand account. If it's true, there should be more marked up the same way.

Denial is one ways that Europeans' dealt with the aftermath of WW-2. And, that is what this pistol says to me. It's like never saying a person's name or what we call "Ghosting" today. But, they kept the pistol, just the same - it had value.

cruzans · 09-14-2022, 02:32 PM

Thanks! I'm going to ask a few more questions about the gun with my friend. Story being battle field pick up and in same household ever since so covered up date codes and proofs were supposedly there and not done afterwards? May never know but going to try to get more info. I'll post some more pics soon................

cruzans · 09-14-2022, 02:55 PM

A few more:

spangy · 09-14-2022, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac Cat

My guess is that someone wanted all the references to Nazi Germany covered up on that pistol. There is just no way to hide its origin, but covering up the symbols made somebody just feel better.

Denial is one ways that Europeans' dealt with the aftermath of WW-2. And, that is what this pistol says to me. It's like never saying a person's name or what we call "Ghosting" today. But, they kept the pistol, just the same - it had value.

I gotta agree with Mac on this one - distancing him/herself from Nazi Association.

cruzans · 09-14-2022, 03:38 PM

Oh, I totally agree with the distancing and ignoring history! I assumed someone did that to this pistol after the war but was told it went into Spain like that - but I'm sure over time memories fade, stories get blurred. I talked to my friend in Spain today and he's going to try to get that letter/history of pistol - just something I would really like to have. Especially seeing "supposedly" it was a Spanish officers Pistol, he was killed on the battlefield, and it was picked up and has been in just one household ever since

Edward Tinker · 09-14-2022, 03:48 PM

It has the serial number, so why would ATF care. They wouldn't. We care about date and proofs, the ATF doesn't care about that stuff.

tomaustin · 09-14-2022, 07:38 PM

a serial number is considered to be a "mark"....unique identification..

the obliteration by the tool marks are also unique and could be registered as the serial number/identity for the weapon....

document them with quality photographs and file the notarized set of papers and photographs with your county clerk's office.

that becomes a record for your weapon.....

Mac Cat · 09-15-2022, 02:36 PM

Wow, it has a matching magazine, too!

09-13-2022, 09:25 AM	#1
cruzans User Join Date: Jun 2022 Posts: 13 Thanks: 13 Thanked 16 Times in 5 Posts	My Second Luger Took a year to get, here's the backstory, any thoughts? A friend of mine who is in Madrid purchased this directly from a retired Spanish military officer who says that his father was in the Spanish Civil War and picked this up on the battlefield and it has been in his family ever since. His story for the date code and proofs being "matrixed" out is that Hitler sent arms to Franco which was "illegal" at the time, so dates and proofs were matrixed out to hide documentation of manufacture, etc. You can still make out the last number in the date code - a "6" so 1936. Numbers all match including magazine. Any thoughts? My friend is working on getting the retired officer to write a letter explaining the history - I just thought that would be cool. Knowing my friend purchased directly from this gentleman in Spain I have no reason to doubt the story.......

09-13-2022, 11:20 AM	#4
Major Tom User Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: S.E. Iowa Posts: 484 Thanks: 533 Thanked 227 Times in 124 Posts	What a unique pistol! I need one! __________________ I Build Custom Pistol Boxes

09-13-2022, 11:33 AM	#5
Roadster 02 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Rocky Mountain High Posts: 313 Thanks: 173 Thanked 252 Times in 87 Posts	Alway's has to be someone that mentions the ATF. Never fails. Last edited by Roadster 02; 09-13-2022 at 05:10 PM.

09-14-2022, 03:48 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	It has the serial number, so why would ATF care. They wouldn't. We care about date and proofs, the ATF doesn't care about that stuff. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-13-2022, 09:40 AM	#2
Kiwi User Join Date: Mar 2019 Location: Wrong side of the Delaware river Posts: 309 Thanks: 216 Thanked 436 Times in 173 Posts	Wow, those XXX's would be a major problem with the ATF here in the USA

09-13-2022, 10:08 AM	#3
cruzans User Join Date: Jun 2022 Posts: 13 Thanks: 13 Thanked 16 Times in 5 Posts	ATF along with Spanish authorities all had to approve the export/import so apparently, they were ok with it - lol.

09-13-2022, 03:28 PM	#6
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 733 Thanks: 2,100 Thanked 610 Times in 329 Posts	It's a trophy for revisionist history

09-13-2022, 08:10 PM	#7
cruzans User Join Date: Jun 2022 Posts: 13 Thanks: 13 Thanked 16 Times in 5 Posts	^^now you've got me sitting here wondering what the heck that means - lol.

09-14-2022, 11:10 AM	#9
jeb111 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2018 Location: wyoming Posts: 277 Thanks: 712 Thanked 331 Times in 133 Posts	That is a very interesting Luger. I would love for you to be able to acquire some written documentation from the previous owner. Also more pictures would be great if you don’t mind. I’m no expert on the Spanish civil war but I don’t know why the date and proofs would need to have been hidden, it was no secret that Germany was supplying Franco with arms and personnel. I wonder which side your friend’s friend was fighting on? Pretty cool and thanks for posting! Jim

09-14-2022, 02:32 PM	#11
cruzans User Join Date: Jun 2022 Posts: 13 Thanks: 13 Thanked 16 Times in 5 Posts	Thanks! I'm going to ask a few more questions about the gun with my friend. Story being battle field pick up and in same household ever since so covered up date codes and proofs were supposedly there and not done afterwards? May never know but going to try to get more info. I'll post some more pics soon................

09-14-2022, 02:55 PM	#12
cruzans User Join Date: Jun 2022 Posts: 13 Thanks: 13 Thanked 16 Times in 5 Posts	A few more:

09-14-2022, 03:38 PM	#14
cruzans User Join Date: Jun 2022 Posts: 13 Thanks: 13 Thanked 16 Times in 5 Posts	Oh, I totally agree with the distancing and ignoring history! I assumed someone did that to this pistol after the war but was told it went into Spain like that - but I'm sure over time memories fade, stories get blurred. I talked to my friend in Spain today and he's going to try to get that letter/history of pistol - just something I would really like to have. Especially seeing "supposedly" it was a Spanish officers Pistol, he was killed on the battlefield, and it was picked up and has been in just one household ever since

09-14-2022, 07:38 PM	#16
tomaustin Lifer X5 Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: texas Posts: 708 Thanks: 87 Thanked 522 Times in 201 Posts	a serial number is considered to be a "mark"....unique identification.. the obliteration by the tool marks are also unique and could be registered as the serial number/identity for the weapon.... document them with quality photographs and file the notarized set of papers and photographs with your county clerk's office. that becomes a record for your weapon.....

09-15-2022, 02:36 PM	#17
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 733 Thanks: 2,100 Thanked 610 Times in 329 Posts	Wow, it has a matching magazine, too!