An interesting KU Luger

[Hugh]

Here are pictures of a KU Luger I recently purchased. Even though it is an import stamped East German rework, I feel that it is well worth the $500 purchase price. All numbers match and appear to be the original parts, except for the sear bar and firing pin, which have been have been electro penciled in. The magazine is an extruded 2/1001 type with a 1 and 1834 stamped on the bottom.

What makes this gun especially interesting is that it is a 1938 byf. According to Still and Gibson, all KU's are 41 byf, 41-42 or 41 S/42 dated except for three known exceptions. These are: 1939-byf KU4246, 1940-42 KU2303, and a rumored 42-byf.

The serial number of this gun, 1834KU, falls in the range of 41-byf guns listed in Gibsons book; in fact he lists one with an 1830 serial number.

This gun has all the proper acceptance marks in the proper places; the LA proof and Mauser acceptance mark on the bbl and the LA on the right receiver and left breechblock. I do not know the purpose of the little group of punch marks below the TD lever, anyone have any ideas?

Comments as to the authenticity of this gun are expected!

[Roadkill]

There ya'll go again, acting like everyone knows what you are talking about. I assume the KU is the sn suffix/block of production? And Hugh, there isn't polite way to say this, but I've never seen a blue Luger before. But that's OK, if that's how they are then so be it. [img]confused.gif[/img]

RK

[Herb]

Hugh, the eagle LA on the left of the barrel is that of a 1941 Krieghoff parts eagle, noted on KU byf's. It represents the letters ZAL, Zivial, or for civilian use. Supposedly the KU means 'Krieghoff Umbricht', a rework for civilian use. Above per Costanzo.

[Hugh]

RK, picky, picky, picky! You can only find blue Loogers in Texas, thats why you rednecks ain't never seen one! Do these colors suit you better?

The KU Lugers are possibly the most controversial of all WWII Lugers because no one is sure what the KU signifies. There are various theories put forth which I won't go into here. For the best info on them see chapter 9 in THE KRIEGHOFF PARABELLUM by Randall Gibson, or Jan Still's THIRD REICH LUGERS, or Walter's THE LUGER BOOK. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

[Hugh]

[max2cam]

I don't have those books and don't know anything about the "ku" controversy.

However, from the "ku" seen on this gun, isn't that an umlaut over the "u" (the two dots)?

From high school German class, that would seem to me to make the "u" actually two letters: "ue".

Is the "ku' suffix actually "kue"?

This is just a shot in the dark.....

[Roadkill]

Maxcam, that is definitely an umlaut, soon as I find my dictionary I'll start looking. Excellent observation.

Hugh, Next time you take out your 24" nickel plated ivory gripped scoped 19 round magazine capacity .219 aramadillo Luger and put it in its Mexican shoulder holster, put on your Richard Petty feather fan cowboy hat with wrap around sun shades and silver tipped snakeskin boots, and climb into your 4wd monster truck with a shrine to Dale on the dash and hanging off the rear view mirror with and the number "3" in gold plated letters on both doors, please ask that wonderful long suffering woman you are married to
if she would please take a picture for you to look at before you consider calling me a redneck again. I'm a little uneasy with some of you Westerners. Thor was trying to kill himself one finger at a time and now this. That hurt.


RK

[Herb]

Hugh, not a whole lot of info in my references on this. Aarron Davis in The Luger Handbook says the KU marked Lugers were made by Mauser but finished by Krieghoff for contractual reasons and then supplied to the the German Coastal Flying Service (KUstenfliegerstafflen) He also shows the eagle LA symbol, so much for Zivial, so many experts, so little agreement. We need Sherlock Holmes on this forum, or maybe Charlie Chan, they could unravel the mysteries of the Luger marking! That made me think of an old Holmes/Watson joke, he he.

[Roadkill]

OK Hugh, just to show that I don't have any hard feelings for you calling me a redneck, I'll try to take care of the mystery of the KUs. The key, as Max2cam correctly brought up, is in the U. The U with the double dots is a pronunciation indicator. This would not have been used for a block sequence since it is a grammar term for pronunciation only. It would however be used on a production item to indicate overrun: "Uberzahl" (with umlaut). They had run out of numbers in the K block, another line had already had used the start of the next block series, they still had production capacity, so they continued production using prior numbers with the U stamp for uberzahl meaning overrun. That's why they are so rare. Nice and orderly, a simple way to handle a normal manufacturing process. The marks on the frame look like they were after the refinishing process. Wouldn't they be blued? And why would the factory designate a unit (Kustefliegestaffeln) and mark it? That would be difficut to designate a specific unit at that level. It would also be a different die at the unit level and on a different place on the gun, those on the gun were marked at the same time.
What about it?

RK

[Brandon]

RK,
It sounds like you could be on to something!

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> Brandon...

[Jimbo]

Now this thread would be the perfect place for comments by Jan Still or Brad Simpson! Any comments, gentlemen? What is the KU Luger?

[Jerry Harris]

So far I think Roadkill gets the prize for creative thinking, though of course in Lugerland (next door to La La Land) that doesn't guarantee a win.

[Hugh]

<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

Ok, I see that you neophytes are going to force me to wear my fingers to the bone typing!
<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

This is what Jan Still says in THIRD REICH LUGERS:

"Some Lugers have a Ku suffix or prefix added to the serial number on the left receiver. Essentially all are dated 41 (with exceptions-HC) and almost all bear the Mauser assigned E/655 acceptance stamp on the barrel. Most have at least one part that is marked with the S/42 or 42 Mauser replacement part code.

The meaning of the Ku and the designation of the Lugers on which it is found has long been the subject of much speculation. Randall Gibson, in his book THE KRIEGHOFF PARABELLUM (pp129-136), thoroughly reviews the subject and finally concludes that they were made up of Mauser parts and probably assembled for the Luftwaffe. Lou Cuta (AUTO MAG, Vol. XIV, p.148) discovered that the probable meaning of the Ku was "Kummerer", which means substandard or missized. The proof found on these Lugers has the appearance of other Luftwaffe markings and is likely a Luftwaffe proof.

While it is apparent that the Ku Lugers were assembled for the Luftwaffe from leftover or missized parts, the time and place of assembly has not been satisfactorily established. A 1941 assembly by Mauser is the most likely; however, the finish is cruder than that of the 1941 Mauser Army contract. Some suggest an assembly date as late as 1944. Assembly at a different plant is also possible. According to Albert Speer, Minister of Armaments (in his book INFILTRATION), there were plans in July, 1942, to continue production of the P.08 at the Neuengamme Concentration Camp. It is estimated that about 5,000 Ku Lugers were assembled by Mauser or at another plant sometime in the 1941 to 1944 time span."

I just finished reading chapter 9 of Gibson's book. His conclusion, after exhaustive examination of available material is:

"With firm documentation lacking, it is not possible to firmly state that the Ku weapons were assembled by Krieghoff for the Luftwaffe. It can be stated that Mauser manufactured the components with the facts indicating that Krieghoff was involved in the final assembly and finishing. This being the case, the pistols were most likely intended for distribution to the Luftwaffe."

[Doubs]

Hugh, I like the "missized" theory. That, of course, doesn't mean it's true.... it just means that I like it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Imperial Lugers, especially late war Erfurt pistols, were sometimes marked with C/RC which signifies a part that functions perfectly but is not within specs. A "Revisions Commission" deemed the part serviceable and stamped it "C/RC". This supposedly made the regular inspector blameless in the event of a failure involving the C/RC stamped part.

So.... why not a WW2 equivalent? Certainly the desperate need for pistols meant that a part that worked, even if not within specs, could be pressed into service. Identifying the gun as having such parts makes perfect sense. Doesn't make it so, but I like the theory.

[Jimbo]

Hello Hugh,

I have Still's book but it would be nice if he could confirm or deny any new information about Ku Lugers since the book was published in 1989. I was hoping, since he now reads these posts, he might have learned something new about them in the last 15 years and could tell us here.

[Hugh]

Right on, Jimbo, I was hoping that Jan or Brad Simpson might have some updated information on these they could share with us. What about it you guys? [img]confused.gif[/img]

[Torquemada055]

Expert= Ex, has been

[Torquemada055]

I hate it when I hit the wrong button's on my keyboard.

Anyhow, I just wanted to say I think it's a very nice piece and I think you got a very good deal on it.

[crgkstnr]

"I do not know the purpose of the little group of punch marks below the TD lever, anyone have any ideas?"

Hi Hugh,
Congratulations on a neat luger. I noticed your importer stamp is the same as on my EG luger which is also a 1938. Mine is a standard S/42 with replaced EG barrel.

Mine also has the punch marks, only up higher on the receiver left of the serial number.

My guess is they're East German police unit markings. I think they had sunburst markings with different unit numbers within.

Craig

[Kyrie]

[quote]Originally posted by crgkstnr:
[QBMy guess is they're East German police unit markings. I think they had sunburst markings with different unit numbers within.
[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

Hi Craig!

Whatever the marking is, it isnâ??t an VoPo sunburst. Hereâ??s what that looks like.

Warm regards,

Kyrie