Black widow grips

[Nomadr]

I am looking to purchase a pair of (Black Widow grips) Is there any markings I should look for to determine if they are original or post war?
Also I have a PO8 alum bottom mag, marked 2830s+ (any matches)?
Thought I would throw that out there!
Bob

[Frank]

Bob, there is quite a bit of information on these grips on the forum. Search "Black Widow" and "Black Bakelite".

[Nomadr]

Thank you Frank!

[John Sabato]

Nomadr,

In addition to frank's advice, if you post good clear photos of any BW grips you are considering purchasing, we will be glad to help you keep from making an expensive mistake.

There are definitely FAKE BW grips out there that some unscrupulous sellers will try to convince you are authentic...

[Nomadr]

Very good advice John. I will do just that. I should be getting pictures tonight and I'll post them.
Thank you again
Bob

[John Sabato]

I suggest that you take good clear closeups of both sides of the grips. Especially the oval shaped 'islands' on the back sides that keep the grips in position. The back sides should also have a blind hole that is threaded... and not necessarily in the same place on both grips...

I look forward to your photos.

[Leon DeSpain]

Hi Bob,

Here is a link to pictures of a pair of correct BW grips.

http://lmd-militaria.com/page65.html

Regards, Leon

[Ron Wood]

Leon,
Although I am sure there are minute variations in BW grips, those pictures sure provide a benchmark for evauation. Excellent.

[Nomadr]

I did receive the pictures from the seller, but looking at the ones in the site Leon sent, and the info I received, they aren't even close and no need for me to post them! Thank you for all the information. I guess my search goes on!
Bob

[MIKE MORRIS]

Also the " blind hole " on the back is threaded metric.........a set of grip screws should fit them........

[G.W. Gill]

Way to go Leon! A "save" as they say in Med talk. You guys are great! There are no other collectors that I know of that are genuine gentlemen. This lot is great!

[John Sabato]

Nomadr,

The photos that Leon made available are excellent examples of genuine BW grips as Ron Wood has stated...

While this is mere speculation... Luke Smithwick and I have been studying BW grips for a couple of years, and in all the examples that I have seen of genuine BW grips, the small circular marks, easily apparent in Leon's photograph on the small "islands" on the back of the grip that hold it in position when mounted on the gun, (see the photo enlargement of one of Leon's photos)



are so consistent that if you cut and paste portions of the photos of this area and overlay a photo from a genuine grip that these circles will match, much like the striations on a bullet from the rifling of the same gun. While some producers of BW reproduction grips could try to attempt to put these circular machine marks on their grips so they would pass as genuine, this is such fine detail that it would most likely not be cost effective... and they would never really line up if compared with a genuine grip.

This fact leads me to conclude (correctly or otherwise...) that ALL genuine BW grips may have come out of the exact same mold... I know that is far leap considering just how many grips must have been produced, but I don't know how else to interpret the findings... The genuine grips were only used for a short time of production, but I don't think any information has surfaced that identifies exactly where these grips were produced, or how long the production cycle may have been before they started installing them at Mauser.

But now, for the other side of the coin... May I request that you should definitely post the photographs you received from the seller, in what ever detail they provide, so that others may see the genre of the imitation, and can avoid them in the future...if you need assistance in posting them, just let me know, I will be glad to help.

...and G.W., you are also correct... this forum is the absolute finest of it's kind... we seek the truth for all to share.

[Dwight Gruber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John Sabato:
<strong>...This fact leads me to conclude (correctly or otherwise...) that ALL genuine BW grips may have come out of the exact same mold...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">John,

Would it not be equally possible--and no less significant--that more than one set of moulds were made from the same "master" set of grips?

--Dwight

[John Sabato]

Dwight,

I think not... and the reason I think this is that the Germans were sticklers for precision. I would think that any "master grip" would be totally free of imperfections, considering the numbers of grips that would be made from it.

It would be a relatively easy task to polish a "master" grip to remove imperfections, but to be able to polish the very bottom of the recess in an injection mold this small so that the milling marks would be unnoticeable to the naked eye would have been very difficult... and since it didn't show when installed, it might be considered unnecessary... these marks are not very deep, they are very subtle, but the consistency of the marks is amazing.

Checking out a really fine condition pair of these grips, it is hard to believe that they were injection molded because there is no evidence of the sprue where the plastic was inserted... My only guess is that the injection point ended up being where the threaded hole appears, and some have speculated that the reason the threaded hole is there was to facilitate the removal of the grip from the mold, and the fact that the threads are the same size and grip screws may just be a coincidence.

In all the German military manuals I have seen over the years, I have never seen a reference to these threaded holes as place to keep the screws while the grips were off the guns.

To continue your line of thought, even though there were no CNC type machine tools back then, I do think it may be possible that some machining routines may have been so identical that they might produce the same (or at least very similar) marks on the "islands" and perhaps the same master tool & die specialist who created the molds for the BW grips was so repetitive in his processes that the grips are near identical regardless of which number mold they popped out of...

It is concieveable to me that a 'gang' mold of four to eight cavities may have been used, and filling and popping our 6 or 8 grips every few minutes could certainly have produced the number of grips that were installed and issued as spares. It is also interesting that the issue of these grips was intermixed with wood grips in short runs as they were made available... but the bulk of grips during the 41-42 time period at Mauser appear to have been the black bakelite type...

I welcome discussion on these points... intelligent speculation can solve many of life's mysteries when no documentation can be found...

[Luke]

Leon -

The grips in the picture for which you posted the link are excellent; some of the best I have seen.

Do you, by any chance, have high resolution (600dpi or better) photographs of them?

Thanks,
Luke

[Leon DeSpain]

Hi Luke,

I took more pictures of the grips and put them on my web site. I hope these give you what you need. I used a lot of light for some of the pictures so the color will be a bit washed out but I did it so you can see the detail.

http://lmd-militaria.com/page112.html

Regards, Leon

[John Sabato]

Thank you Leon... Excellent Photography...

[Ron Wood]

Forensic quality photos. You are getting pretty good. Are you trying to put the rest of us to shame?!! (Seriously, this kind of photo essay is a real boon to collectors...thank you for your efforts)

[Leon DeSpain]

Thanks Ron!!

I have worked really hard to try to get good pictures and spent many hours and a few dollars trying different setups.

One of the very frustrating things for a collector is to see pictures of a gun that they would like to evaluate and the pictures are too blurry or dark to be able to see the details. I have done my best to solve that problem but am not totally satisfied and still experimenting.

Regards, Leon

[Luke]

Hello Leon,

Thanks for the excellent pictures. I have added them to my collection of "Black Widow" grip pictures. These are the best ones I have seen.

Regards,
Luke