1914 Erfurt Dilemma

drbuster · 08-04-2002, 02:09 PM

This has bothered me for some time: Jan Still (Page 41 of Imperial Lugers) states that 4" P.08's were few in number (7000) and serialed (reported) 504-9448b range. My Erfurt 1914 is all matching, including grips and clip and is numbered 9912q, yes, definitely "q". Also on Ralph's latest list there is an Erfurt 1914 numbered 5523r (page 3, #32-6040). It is my theory that Jan Still was talking about PRE-WAR models, with an unrelieved sear, with or wothout stock lugs. When the war broke out, the Germans were moving towards Liege, Antwerp and on to Mons and hopefully, they hoped, Paris. Full war production began and after August 1914 many thousands of 1914 dated Erfurts were produced with relieved sear bars. All of you with 1914 Erfurts, please check those serials and report back so Jan Still (If I'm right) can update his data. Actually, I'm certain he knows all this already!

Johnny Peppers · 08-05-2002, 12:44 AM

Mr. Fisher,
The 1914 dated Erfurt P08 is one of the rarest of the WWII era Lugers. The 1914 Erfurt P08 is extremely hard to find, and had they gone into the q and r letter suffix block they would be one of the more common of the WWI Lugers. I have not seen a picture of your pistol, but my best guess is that the letter suffix is an incomplete strike of the letter b, which in the lower case cursive has a tail much like the q, or possibly the letter b was struck upside down. Again, I have not seen it, but current information does not bear out the production of Lugers into the q/r letter suffix block. This would indicate Erfurt production figures in the 170/180,000 range for 1914, and existing specimens don't bear this out.

Garfield · 08-05-2002, 01:32 AM

Excellent point, Johnny Peppers! You stole my thunder. Erfurt didn't get in to full production until 1917. There just aren't that many 1914 short barrel lugers out there. Seems as though Ralph and Herbert's pistols are the exception. Herbert where did you pick this pistol up?

Regards,

drbuster · 08-05-2002, 11:04 AM

Dear Johnny Peppers and Garfield, I greatly appreciate your replies. I want to believe you both. I hope the purchaser of the "r" block 1914 Erfurt is a member of the forum and will respond. I bought mine from Mike Krause here is San Mateo, he told me that it was a bring back years ago by a family member of a now defunct gun shop. Any ideas of shooting it are now gone! I must purchase a digital camera.

Herb · 08-05-2002, 01:43 PM

Herb, Aarron Davis in 'The Luger Handbook' page 36 indicates that the 1914 military model could have the markings of DWM, Erfurt Or Spandau and were produced in the many thousands, therefore no serial number range was given. The
Erfurt inspection marks look like a grip screw from the side, actually small letters (c,d,k,u,) surmounted by a small 'cap'. He further says that the Erfurt models do not have a very good finish. If your 'Q' suffix has a 'tail' going down, then it is definitely a Q, as the 'B' would go up. It should have a 4" barrel and have a stock lug, lots of proofs and a rather crude finish showing machining marks.

drbuster · 08-05-2002, 10:59 PM

Dear Herb, I am familiar with Aarron's book. My 1914 Erfurt has all the markings you mention.I'm planning to contact Ralph to see if he can pursuade the new owner of the "r" block 1914 to post. I will also try to post photos in the near future.

Johnny Peppers · 08-05-2002, 11:10 PM

Herb,
Look on page 326 of your Costanzo book. There Sam shows three different letter suffix lower case cursive b's, all with tails. That was the reasoning behind my theory that the q could be an incomplete stamp of the letter b. The theory seems to be more sound than the letter being a q if the pistol is actually a 1914 dated Erfurt.
The Erfurts cannot be identified simply by a crude finish. The early Erfurts exhibited a finish almost on a par with the DWM's of the period. As with any military firearm the finish will vary from weapon to weapon, but I have a 1914 dated Erfurt P08 with as nice a finish as any DWM of 1914. As the war progressed, Erfurt's finish seemed to suffer more than DWM's.

Herb · 08-05-2002, 11:28 PM

JP, I see what you refer to. I was using the description from the luger forum/lugermarkings which are clear as to which side of the mark the 'tail' should be on. A 'b' on the left, a 'q' on the right, IMO rather hard to confuse. As to finish I can only reply that is what I have in my references, if I had anything original I would consider myself an expert which I am by no stretch of the imagination considered. Without them, I would be relegated to hunting rocks, which my wife gets me to do occassionally. LOL.

drbuster · 08-06-2002, 12:58 AM

Dear JP and Herb, The tail is definitely on the right and below. The letter on the clip bottom also appears to be a "q". My 1914 Erfurt has a fine DWM type finish. With all this I still cannot explain the "r" suffix on the 1914 sold by Ralph recently. The dilemma deepens. Jan Still, please help!!!

Jan C Still · 08-06-2002, 02:00 AM

Herb F.
You have confused the 1914 Erfurt that Herb K.(Keister) is discussing with the model 1914 that includes 1914 -1918 dated Erfurt, DWM, and Spandu??? What does Aarron Davis base his production figures on. Based on your quotes his figures are so distorted from reality as to be useless. There are better books to base production figures on.
Jan

Garfield · 08-06-2002, 02:13 AM

OK:

Now I am confused! Who is Herb K?

Jan C Still · 08-06-2002, 02:42 AM

Herb F.
You state: "Jan Still (Page 41 of Imperial Lugers) states that 4" P.08's were few in number (7000) and serialed (reported) 504-9448b range."
Page 41 of Imperial Lugers makes no such statement. However,p 15 and p. 61 of Imperial Lugers do estimate 1914 Erfurt production.

Your theory:"It is my theory that Jan Still was talking about PRE-WAR models, with an unrelieved sear, with or wothout stock lugs. When the war broke out, the Germans were moving towards Liege, Antwerp and on to Mons and hopefully, they hoped, Paris. Full war production began and after August 1914 many thousands of 1914 dated Erfurts were produced with relieved sear bars."

How ever did you arrive at that theory. Certainally nothing is stated in the text that would lead to such speculation. As Johnny Peppers and Garfield pointed out the existing specimans of 1914 Erfurt are very scarce relative to the other production.

As to the releaved sear bars, that was patented in April 1916 (see p 61 Imperial Lugers)and shows up on the military Luger production about then.

There are a number of possible explanations as to why a few specimens of 1914 Erfurt are found in the r and q serial range with releaved sear bars. Perhaps the other owners/sellers of the r and q serial range 1914 Erfurt lugers have an explanation.
Jan

drbuster · 08-06-2002, 03:04 AM

Dear Jan, I am very grateful that you took the time to reply to this "dilemma". I must apologize, I got the page number wrong, it was page 61 of your book. I am still at a loss to explain my Erfurt 1914 "q" and Ralph's "r". Are you implying that these are not original, or were made at a later date. Johnny Peppers states that 1914 4" Erfurts are very hard to find. Am I lucky to have one or is mine not really "one"? Still confused.

drbuster · 08-06-2002, 03:12 AM

P.S. Mr Still. My "theory" about a change in production at the start of WW1 is pure speculation only. I was just trying to figure a way to explain genuine "q" and "r" blocks in a year with only 7000 1914 Erfurts. I obviosly need to do alot more research.

Garfield · 08-06-2002, 04:08 AM

Herb M:

I can appreciate your concern; here you have a luger having a serial # which is approximately 150,000 lugers over the documented serial # range for that specific date and the only other one that you are aware of is 5,000 numbers higher? However, the fact that Jan still has directed your attention to this anomaly (as I and Johnny Pepper previously had) does not "imply" anything regarding the pistol's authenticity. Still was simply making a statement based on accumulated data. You, after having been presented with this information, seem to have independantly reached the conclusion that your pistol may be suspect.

drbuster · 08-06-2002, 11:08 AM

Dear Garfield, I don't know what to suspect, I only know that I have to do more research to explain this 1914 Erfurt that has every part, including the clip, matched and has a typical good finish of the early Erfurt period. I also want to thank Pete Ebbink {my "neighbor" in the Est Bay} for his gracious e-mail. I have queried Ralph on this matter and am waiting for his reply.

Pete Ebbink · 08-06-2002, 08:58 PM

All,

If this "beginner" can pose another possibility :

Is there any documentation of Erfurt making lugers in late 1917-1918 with left-over, unused 1914 frames ? As Erfurt was feeling the pressures of filling out orders in the late phases of WWI, might they have reached, deep into their parts bins ?

I understand Kreighoff did this; with chamber dates and serial numbers getting out of sequential order.

But then, the early nice Erfurt finish may not make sense...

And yes, I do not rule out the possiblity of such 1914 Erfurts being "funny" guns, either...

Dr. Fisher : We all look forward to your follow-up post, once you have more information to share with the Forum ! <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

LP08 · 08-07-2002, 02:52 AM

This 1914 dated Erfurt toggled luger could be a post-WW1 creation made of earlier parts. I have seen an Erfurt toggled luger that has commercial post-1940 proof stamps. The luger might also be a combination of several parts including a 1914 dated receiver. The matching serial numbers deserve inspection along with other internal and external markings to draw an accurate conclusion.

drbuster · 08-07-2002, 11:02 AM

Many thanks to all who responded to this "dilemma". The serial appear to all have been properly struck. I have seen some of the post WW1 reworks and you can usually tell. I hope to move one step further Aug 16-17 by taking the peice to the Reno show for others to see, including Ralph. Will post later.

08-04-2002, 02:09 PM	#1
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	1914 Erfurt Dilemma This has bothered me for some time: Jan Still (Page 41 of Imperial Lugers) states that 4" P.08's were few in number (7000) and serialed (reported) 504-9448b range. My Erfurt 1914 is all matching, including grips and clip and is numbered 9912q, yes, definitely "q". Also on Ralph's latest list there is an Erfurt 1914 numbered 5523r (page 3, #32-6040). It is my theory that Jan Still was talking about PRE-WAR models, with an unrelieved sear, with or wothout stock lugs. When the war broke out, the Germans were moving towards Liege, Antwerp and on to Mons and hopefully, they hoped, Paris. Full war production began and after August 1914 many thousands of 1914 dated Erfurts were produced with relieved sear bars. All of you with 1914 Erfurts, please check those serials and report back so Jan Still (If I'm right) can update his data. Actually, I'm certain he knows all this already!

08-05-2002, 01:43 PM	#5
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Herb, Aarron Davis in 'The Luger Handbook' page 36 indicates that the 1914 military model could have the markings of DWM, Erfurt Or Spandau and were produced in the many thousands, therefore no serial number range was given. The Erfurt inspection marks look like a grip screw from the side, actually small letters (c,d,k,u,) surmounted by a small 'cap'. He further says that the Erfurt models do not have a very good finish. If your 'Q' suffix has a 'tail' going down, then it is definitely a Q, as the 'B' would go up. It should have a 4" barrel and have a stock lug, lots of proofs and a rather crude finish showing machining marks. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-05-2002, 11:28 PM	#8
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	JP, I see what you refer to. I was using the description from the luger forum/lugermarkings which are clear as to which side of the mark the 'tail' should be on. A 'b' on the left, a 'q' on the right, IMO rather hard to confuse. As to finish I can only reply that is what I have in my references, if I had anything original I would consider myself an expert which I am by no stretch of the imagination considered. Without them, I would be relegated to hunting rocks, which my wife gets me to do occassionally. LOL. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-05-2002, 12:44 AM	#2
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Mr. Fisher, The 1914 dated Erfurt P08 is one of the rarest of the WWII era Lugers. The 1914 Erfurt P08 is extremely hard to find, and had they gone into the q and r letter suffix block they would be one of the more common of the WWI Lugers. I have not seen a picture of your pistol, but my best guess is that the letter suffix is an incomplete strike of the letter b, which in the lower case cursive has a tail much like the q, or possibly the letter b was struck upside down. Again, I have not seen it, but current information does not bear out the production of Lugers into the q/r letter suffix block. This would indicate Erfurt production figures in the 170/180,000 range for 1914, and existing specimens don't bear this out.

08-05-2002, 01:32 AM	#3
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Excellent point, Johnny Peppers! You stole my thunder. Erfurt didn't get in to full production until 1917. There just aren't that many 1914 short barrel lugers out there. Seems as though Ralph and Herbert's pistols are the exception. Herbert where did you pick this pistol up? Regards,

08-05-2002, 11:04 AM	#4
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Dear Johnny Peppers and Garfield, I greatly appreciate your replies. I want to believe you both. I hope the purchaser of the "r" block 1914 Erfurt is a member of the forum and will respond. I bought mine from Mike Krause here is San Mateo, he told me that it was a bring back years ago by a family member of a now defunct gun shop. Any ideas of shooting it are now gone! I must purchase a digital camera.

08-05-2002, 10:59 PM	#6
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Dear Herb, I am familiar with Aarron's book. My 1914 Erfurt has all the markings you mention.I'm planning to contact Ralph to see if he can pursuade the new owner of the "r" block 1914 to post. I will also try to post photos in the near future.

08-05-2002, 11:10 PM	#7
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Herb, Look on page 326 of your Costanzo book. There Sam shows three different letter suffix lower case cursive b's, all with tails. That was the reasoning behind my theory that the q could be an incomplete stamp of the letter b. The theory seems to be more sound than the letter being a q if the pistol is actually a 1914 dated Erfurt. The Erfurts cannot be identified simply by a crude finish. The early Erfurts exhibited a finish almost on a par with the DWM's of the period. As with any military firearm the finish will vary from weapon to weapon, but I have a 1914 dated Erfurt P08 with as nice a finish as any DWM of 1914. As the war progressed, Erfurt's finish seemed to suffer more than DWM's.

08-06-2002, 12:58 AM	#9
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Dear JP and Herb, The tail is definitely on the right and below. The letter on the clip bottom also appears to be a "q". My 1914 Erfurt has a fine DWM type finish. With all this I still cannot explain the "r" suffix on the 1914 sold by Ralph recently. The dilemma deepens. Jan Still, please help!!!

08-06-2002, 02:00 AM	#10
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Herb F. You have confused the 1914 Erfurt that Herb K.(Keister) is discussing with the model 1914 that includes 1914 -1918 dated Erfurt, DWM, and Spandu??? What does Aarron Davis base his production figures on. Based on your quotes his figures are so distorted from reality as to be useless. There are better books to base production figures on. Jan

08-06-2002, 02:13 AM	#11
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	OK: Now I am confused! Who is Herb K?

08-06-2002, 02:42 AM	#12
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Herb F. You state: "Jan Still (Page 41 of Imperial Lugers) states that 4" P.08's were few in number (7000) and serialed (reported) 504-9448b range." Page 41 of Imperial Lugers makes no such statement. However,p 15 and p. 61 of Imperial Lugers do estimate 1914 Erfurt production. Your theory:"It is my theory that Jan Still was talking about PRE-WAR models, with an unrelieved sear, with or wothout stock lugs. When the war broke out, the Germans were moving towards Liege, Antwerp and on to Mons and hopefully, they hoped, Paris. Full war production began and after August 1914 many thousands of 1914 dated Erfurts were produced with relieved sear bars." How ever did you arrive at that theory. Certainally nothing is stated in the text that would lead to such speculation. As Johnny Peppers and Garfield pointed out the existing specimans of 1914 Erfurt are very scarce relative to the other production. As to the releaved sear bars, that was patented in April 1916 (see p 61 Imperial Lugers)and shows up on the military Luger production about then. There are a number of possible explanations as to why a few specimens of 1914 Erfurt are found in the r and q serial range with releaved sear bars. Perhaps the other owners/sellers of the r and q serial range 1914 Erfurt lugers have an explanation. Jan

08-06-2002, 03:04 AM	#13
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Dear Jan, I am very grateful that you took the time to reply to this "dilemma". I must apologize, I got the page number wrong, it was page 61 of your book. I am still at a loss to explain my Erfurt 1914 "q" and Ralph's "r". Are you implying that these are not original, or were made at a later date. Johnny Peppers states that 1914 4" Erfurts are very hard to find. Am I lucky to have one or is mine not really "one"? Still confused.

08-06-2002, 03:12 AM	#14
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	P.S. Mr Still. My "theory" about a change in production at the start of WW1 is pure speculation only. I was just trying to figure a way to explain genuine "q" and "r" blocks in a year with only 7000 1914 Erfurts. I obviosly need to do alot more research.

08-06-2002, 04:08 AM	#15
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Herb M: I can appreciate your concern; here you have a luger having a serial # which is approximately 150,000 lugers over the documented serial # range for that specific date and the only other one that you are aware of is 5,000 numbers higher? However, the fact that Jan still has directed your attention to this anomaly (as I and Johnny Pepper previously had) does not "imply" anything regarding the pistol's authenticity. Still was simply making a statement based on accumulated data. You, after having been presented with this information, seem to have independantly reached the conclusion that your pistol may be suspect.

08-06-2002, 11:08 AM	#16
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Dear Garfield, I don't know what to suspect, I only know that I have to do more research to explain this 1914 Erfurt that has every part, including the clip, matched and has a typical good finish of the early Erfurt period. I also want to thank Pete Ebbink {my "neighbor" in the Est Bay} for his gracious e-mail. I have queried Ralph on this matter and am waiting for his reply.

08-06-2002, 08:58 PM	#17
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	All, If this "beginner" can pose another possibility : Is there any documentation of Erfurt making lugers in late 1917-1918 with left-over, unused 1914 frames ? As Erfurt was feeling the pressures of filling out orders in the late phases of WWI, might they have reached, deep into their parts bins ? I understand Kreighoff did this; with chamber dates and serial numbers getting out of sequential order. But then, the early nice Erfurt finish may not make sense... And yes, I do not rule out the possiblity of such 1914 Erfurts being "funny" guns, either... Dr. Fisher : We all look forward to your follow-up post, once you have more information to share with the Forum ! <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-07-2002, 02:52 AM	#18
LP08 User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 71 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This 1914 dated Erfurt toggled luger could be a post-WW1 creation made of earlier parts. I have seen an Erfurt toggled luger that has commercial post-1940 proof stamps. The luger might also be a combination of several parts including a 1914 dated receiver. The matching serial numbers deserve inspection along with other internal and external markings to draw an accurate conclusion.

08-07-2002, 11:02 AM	#19
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Many thanks to all who responded to this "dilemma". The serial appear to all have been properly struck. I have seen some of the post WW1 reworks and you can usually tell. I hope to move one step further Aug 16-17 by taking the peice to the Reno show for others to see, including Ralph. Will post later.