Stock Lug Data Survey

Dwight Gruber · 03-20-2004, 04:51 PM

I am collecting serial number data to try to pin down the changeover from no-stock-lug frames to frames with stock lugs on 1913 Lugers, both DWM and Erfurt, and the range of 1914 pistols with no stock lugs.

Please post (or send me) the serial# of any 1913 DWM or Erfurt pistols -with- stock lugs which you own or know about. Also, if you can report the serial# of 1914 DWM or Erfurt pistols -without- stock lugs please report that as well--also include the inspectors's stamps present on these pistols.

Serial numbers from 1920 property marked "two-date" Lugers and Police reworks which retain their original serial# are valid for the purpose, as are East German and Russian reworks which retain sufficient identity.

It is possible that this survey has been done in AutoMag, and I am simply reinventing the wheel--I have no way to know. If this is the case, I would appreciate being told or, better yet, if somebody would send me the data, this survey will add to it.

When it appears that no more information is forthcoming I will post the results.

--Dwight
[email protected]

Pete Ebbink · 03-20-2004, 05:54 PM

Hello Dwight,

My 1913/1920 Erfurt police-modified luger does not have a stock lug and is serialled # 4304a...

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/peteserfurt4.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/peteserfurt4.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John Sabato · 03-20-2004, 10:59 PM

Dwight, the bottom half of my 1914 Erfurt "frankenartilleryluger" is all matching parts and does have a stock lug naturally since it is an artillery. The serial number is 1327a.

The upper half is serial number 3367 but I don't think that is relevant to your study.

Hope this helps.

Doubs · 03-21-2004, 01:04 AM

John, maybe I'm not thinking clearly here but what is there about the frame of your Erfurt "Frankenartilleryluger" that would identify it's year of manufacture? Why couldn't it be a 1916, 1917 or even 1918?

Vlim · 03-21-2004, 08:50 AM

Hi Dwight,

Nice project. But please keep in mind that during 1913-1914 DWM were working on a number of foreign contracts, most of which had no stock lugs. Finding a correct change-over time can be tricky since they were bound to have both frame variations in stock for quite some time (up to the 1930s).

On the other hand, the changeover would have been accompanied with some formal date set by the producer and the German WaA and it would not surprise me if the changeover started with a new serial range or a freshly delivered batch. I'm looking forward to your conclusions.

Lugerdoc · 03-21-2004, 09:41 AM

Dwight, As you probably already know, the conventional thinking is that Erfurt introduced the stock lug to the standard PO8 frame in Dec 1913, which makes sense, since they first made the LPO8 starting in 1914, and DWM followed starting in 1914. TH

Dwight Gruber · 03-21-2004, 02:15 PM

Gerben,

P-08 delivered after August 4, 1913 were all to have a stock lug (Still, "Imperial Lugers"). At best, I think this survey will let us more closely date a particular part of the production range. Also, it will be interesting to see if a mix of frame styles turns up in a short serial # range.

As far as having both frame variations in stock at the same time, I think the existence of the 1914 DWMs with no lugs demonstrates this quite well.

Information is not flooding in, so any conclusions will probably be extremely generalized.

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 03-21-2004, 02:21 PM

The foreign contracts with no stock lugs, weren't they the 1906 style of grip safety? And I thought there was a cut out for 1906 style or am I remembering wrongly?

ed

Dwight Gruber · 03-21-2004, 04:23 PM

Ed,

A quick leaf through the literature shows that the only P-08 frame style contract Luger was the 1908 (1911) Bulgarian, the one with the lanyard loop at the bottom of the grip.

There are detail differences in the machining of P-06 and P-08 frames, in the area of the grip safety. I posted a photo comparison of them back in December, but cannot now find the post.

--Dwight

Lyn Islaub · 03-21-2004, 05:52 PM

Dwight,
My 1913 without stock lug or hold-open is S/N 1852. As this is a very early 1913 date, the proofs on the right side of the receiver are more common with those manufactured in 1912 if Costanzo's info is correct.
Lyn

John Sabato · 03-22-2004, 10:43 AM

Doubs, You are absolutely correct. I guess the thought never occured to me that the frame might not be the same year as the top... Thanks for poking my thought processes...

Dwight, unless someone can tell me how to determine the manufacturing year of the grip frame, you should ignore my input for your study...

03-20-2004, 04:51 PM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Stock Lug Data Survey I am collecting serial number data to try to pin down the changeover from no-stock-lug frames to frames with stock lugs on 1913 Lugers, both DWM and Erfurt, and the range of 1914 pistols with no stock lugs. Please post (or send me) the serial# of any 1913 DWM or Erfurt pistols -with- stock lugs which you own or know about. Also, if you can report the serial# of 1914 DWM or Erfurt pistols -without- stock lugs please report that as well--also include the inspectors's stamps present on these pistols. Serial numbers from 1920 property marked "two-date" Lugers and Police reworks which retain their original serial# are valid for the purpose, as are East German and Russian reworks which retain sufficient identity. It is possible that this survey has been done in AutoMag, and I am simply reinventing the wheel--I have no way to know. If this is the case, I would appreciate being told or, better yet, if somebody would send me the data, this survey will add to it. When it appears that no more information is forthcoming I will post the results. --Dwight [email protected]

03-20-2004, 10:59 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Dwight, the bottom half of my 1914 Erfurt "frankenartilleryluger" is all matching parts and does have a stock lug naturally since it is an artillery. The serial number is 1327a. The upper half is serial number 3367 but I don't think that is relevant to your study. Hope this helps. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-21-2004, 09:41 AM	#6
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Dwight, As you probably already know, the conventional thinking is that Erfurt introduced the stock lug to the standard PO8 frame in Dec 1913, which makes sense, since they first made the LPO8 starting in 1914, and DWM followed starting in 1914. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

03-21-2004, 02:21 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	The foreign contracts with no stock lugs, weren't they the 1906 style of grip safety? And I thought there was a cut out for 1906 style or am I remembering wrongly? ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-22-2004, 10:43 AM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Doubs, You are absolutely correct. I guess the thought never occured to me that the frame might not be the same year as the top... Thanks for poking my thought processes... Dwight, unless someone can tell me how to determine the manufacturing year of the grip frame, you should ignore my input for your study... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-20-2004, 05:54 PM	#2
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Dwight, My 1913/1920 Erfurt police-modified luger does not have a stock lug and is serialled # 4304a... <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/peteserfurt4.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/peteserfurt4.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-21-2004, 01:04 AM	#4
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,692 Times in 555 Posts	John, maybe I'm not thinking clearly here but what is there about the frame of your Erfurt "Frankenartilleryluger" that would identify it's year of manufacture? Why couldn't it be a 1916, 1917 or even 1918?

03-21-2004, 08:50 AM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Dwight, Nice project. But please keep in mind that during 1913-1914 DWM were working on a number of foreign contracts, most of which had no stock lugs. Finding a correct change-over time can be tricky since they were bound to have both frame variations in stock for quite some time (up to the 1930s). On the other hand, the changeover would have been accompanied with some formal date set by the producer and the German WaA and it would not surprise me if the changeover started with a new serial range or a freshly delivered batch. I'm looking forward to your conclusions.

03-21-2004, 02:15 PM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Gerben, P-08 delivered after August 4, 1913 were all to have a stock lug (Still, "Imperial Lugers"). At best, I think this survey will let us more closely date a particular part of the production range. Also, it will be interesting to see if a mix of frame styles turns up in a short serial # range. As far as having both frame variations in stock at the same time, I think the existence of the 1914 DWMs with no lugs demonstrates this quite well. Information is not flooding in, so any conclusions will probably be extremely generalized. --Dwight

03-21-2004, 04:23 PM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Ed, A quick leaf through the literature shows that the only P-08 frame style contract Luger was the 1908 (1911) Bulgarian, the one with the lanyard loop at the bottom of the grip. There are detail differences in the machining of P-06 and P-08 frames, in the area of the grip safety. I posted a photo comparison of them back in December, but cannot now find the post. --Dwight

03-21-2004, 05:52 PM	#10
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	Dwight, My 1913 without stock lug or hold-open is S/N 1852. As this is a very early 1913 date, the proofs on the right side of the receiver are more common with those manufactured in 1912 if Costanzo's info is correct. Lyn