GERMANY stamped toggle

Dwight Gruber · 06-12-2004, 11:05 AM

Observed at the Portland gun show, a standard .30 cal. Alphabet Commercial whose toggle was shaved, no DWM, and in its place was stamped GERMANY. The serial# suffix was overstamped with a large, Roman/serif K, both frame and barrel.

Has anyone seen the like?

--Dwight

Ron Smith · 06-12-2004, 11:51 AM

Dwight, Is it possibly a Krieghoff post war commercial? As per Lugers at Random pg 337. They have shaved toggles. Maybe at some point Krieghoff
started to mark them. And then for some reason, ceased the practice. Kenyon states that these were sold through PXs. Maybe they had some that they marked for export. Post occupation.

Ron

blayne · 06-12-2004, 12:26 PM

I am guessing that it was put on there by an American, it was a military (or made into a commerical and shaved at that time). Or what many people call a sneak and someone felt they had to put the country mark on it for import.

What did the stamping look like?

Dwight Gruber · 06-12-2004, 08:36 PM

Ron,

I don't think so. I'll take another look at it tomorrow, but the cahracteristics I recall are all DWM alphabet commercial. It has all the numbers in all the expected places and DWM proofs where theyare supposed to be, nothing I can recognize as a Krieghoff proof. The grips are -really nice- standard walnut Luger grips. A nice fantasy, though...

blayne,

Nothing about GERMANY said to me anything other than a normal export stamp. Another collector at the show looked at it as well, and didn't notice anything untoward. The gun is in really quite nice shape, but I have not taken it down to really examine it, and at a $1,050 asking price I'm not sure I want to appeartoo interested.

--Dwight

Ron Smith · 06-12-2004, 09:29 PM

Dwight, Does the seller offer any clues? He has it priced at about what a 1923 Comm. would be going for in nice cond. I have never seen any reference to a K marked Luger. Curious??

Ron

drbuster · 06-12-2004, 09:33 PM

Dwight, nothing seems to surprise me about 1920 commercials. I have seen several (I own one) with the suffix stamped either with a crown or larger letter. I do believe it came out of BKIW during the "commercial blitz" to use up everything and get revenue for the bankrupt Weimer Republic.

Dwight Gruber · 06-13-2004, 05:08 AM

Ron,

The seller has no clue. He is a real dealer who sells at the show, he said that it just came in to his shop the night before he set up--when I first saw it he didn't even know what he was going to ask for it. The K is only a suffix overstamp, I wouldn't really call it K marked.

I have no problem about its likely to be one of those strange interwar commercials. It unfortunately has had the stock lug ground off--something which I have failed to mention in favor of my curiosity about the toggle. It retains its curiosity value, but otherwise is pretty devalued.

--Dwight

Dwight Gruber · 06-14-2004, 04:10 AM

I had an opportunity to examine this gun closely today at the gun show.

The GERMANY stamp was crudely made, not anything like a real export stamp; I couldn't get the gun apart (the takedown lever was homemade and too tight to move with casual pressure) but the parts of the frame I could see by taking off the grips showed that it was salt blued; the surfaces of the sideplate were worked, not completely smooth with sharp edges; and there were patches of cold blue.

In short, this Luger was bogus, and not worth any further consideration.

This was an interesting lesson which, for once, didn't cost the price of a gun.

--Dwight

Ron Smith · 06-14-2004, 08:59 AM

Dwight, Too bad! It was starting to get interesting.
Ron

Lugerdoc · 06-14-2004, 03:58 PM

I like Dr.Herb's BKIW theory, as they did build up quite a few blank toggle (original manufactures logo, milled off) militaries in 1929. Plus in my "toggle parts draw" I have a left over WW1 era center toggle link, that has been milled off and neatly stamped GERMANY (read from left side of gun) and serial #10 (in normal location). If the "K"s previously referenced are under a crown, they might indicate the Norweigen Koenigsberg arsenal. If not, perhaps a year code for 1934. TH

Dwight Gruber · 06-15-2004, 12:50 AM

Tom,

I'd be curious to see a picture of your toggle marked GERMANY, note how it compared with the one on this gun.

The K was not stamped under a crown, or any other place one normally finds a date code--it overstruck the serial number suffix on both the frame and the barrel.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 06-15-2004, 11:08 AM

Dwight, Alas, unless something has changed recently, Tom H is one of those "stone age" internet users who is not "graphic enabled" because he uses an old "WebTV" device for the internet instead of a Computer...

Perhaps he could snail mail you some photos ??

Lugerdoc · 06-15-2004, 11:13 AM

Dwight, John is right, I still don't have photo sending capability. If you care to post a photo of yours, I'll be happy to comment on any differences, or if you're willing to pay the postage, I'll loan you the link for closer observation, and hopefully comments here on the forum. TH

Dwight Gruber · 06-15-2004, 11:00 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lugerdoc:
Dwight, John is right, I still don't have photo sending capability. If you care to post a photo of yours, I'll be happy to comment on any differences, or if you're willing to pay the postage, I'll loan you the link for closer observation, and hopefully comments here on the forum. TH<hr /></blockquote>I knew that about the photo capability, I was giving you just a little bit of the elbow <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I didn't buy the gun, so I can't post a photo--would, if I could--but I'm tempted about the mailing offer, let me think about it.

--Dwight

06-12-2004, 11:51 AM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Dwight, Is it possibly a Krieghoff post war commercial? As per Lugers at Random pg 337. They have shaved toggles. Maybe at some point Krieghoff started to mark them. And then for some reason, ceased the practice. Kenyon states that these were sold through PXs. Maybe they had some that they marked for export. Post occupation. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-12-2004, 09:29 PM	#5
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Dwight, Does the seller offer any clues? He has it priced at about what a 1923 Comm. would be going for in nice cond. I have never seen any reference to a K marked Luger. Curious?? Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-14-2004, 08:59 AM	#9
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Dwight, Too bad! It was starting to get interesting. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-15-2004, 11:08 AM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Dwight, Alas, unless something has changed recently, Tom H is one of those "stone age" internet users who is not "graphic enabled" because he uses an old "WebTV" device for the internet instead of a Computer... Perhaps he could snail mail you some photos ?? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-15-2004, 11:13 AM	#13
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Dwight, John is right, I still don't have photo sending capability. If you care to post a photo of yours, I'll be happy to comment on any differences, or if you're willing to pay the postage, I'll loan you the link for closer observation, and hopefully comments here on the forum. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

06-12-2004, 11:05 AM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	GERMANY stamped toggle Observed at the Portland gun show, a standard .30 cal. Alphabet Commercial whose toggle was shaved, no DWM, and in its place was stamped GERMANY. The serial# suffix was overstamped with a large, Roman/serif K, both frame and barrel. Has anyone seen the like? --Dwight

06-12-2004, 12:26 PM	#3
blayne User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 34 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I am guessing that it was put on there by an American, it was a military (or made into a commerical and shaved at that time). Or what many people call a sneak and someone felt they had to put the country mark on it for import. What did the stamping look like?

06-12-2004, 08:36 PM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Ron, I don't think so. I'll take another look at it tomorrow, but the cahracteristics I recall are all DWM alphabet commercial. It has all the numbers in all the expected places and DWM proofs where theyare supposed to be, nothing I can recognize as a Krieghoff proof. The grips are -really nice- standard walnut Luger grips. A nice fantasy, though... blayne, Nothing about GERMANY said to me anything other than a normal export stamp. Another collector at the show looked at it as well, and didn't notice anything untoward. The gun is in really quite nice shape, but I have not taken it down to really examine it, and at a $1,050 asking price I'm not sure I want to appeartoo interested. --Dwight

06-12-2004, 09:33 PM	#6
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Dwight, nothing seems to surprise me about 1920 commercials. I have seen several (I own one) with the suffix stamped either with a crown or larger letter. I do believe it came out of BKIW during the "commercial blitz" to use up everything and get revenue for the bankrupt Weimer Republic.

06-13-2004, 05:08 AM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Ron, The seller has no clue. He is a real dealer who sells at the show, he said that it just came in to his shop the night before he set up--when I first saw it he didn't even know what he was going to ask for it. The K is only a suffix overstamp, I wouldn't really call it K marked. I have no problem about its likely to be one of those strange interwar commercials. It unfortunately has had the stock lug ground off--something which I have failed to mention in favor of my curiosity about the toggle. It retains its curiosity value, but otherwise is pretty devalued. --Dwight

06-14-2004, 04:10 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	I had an opportunity to examine this gun closely today at the gun show. The GERMANY stamp was crudely made, not anything like a real export stamp; I couldn't get the gun apart (the takedown lever was homemade and too tight to move with casual pressure) but the parts of the frame I could see by taking off the grips showed that it was salt blued; the surfaces of the sideplate were worked, not completely smooth with sharp edges; and there were patches of cold blue. In short, this Luger was bogus, and not worth any further consideration. This was an interesting lesson which, for once, didn't cost the price of a gun. --Dwight

06-14-2004, 03:58 PM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I like Dr.Herb's BKIW theory, as they did build up quite a few blank toggle (original manufactures logo, milled off) militaries in 1929. Plus in my "toggle parts draw" I have a left over WW1 era center toggle link, that has been milled off and neatly stamped GERMANY (read from left side of gun) and serial #10 (in normal location). If the "K"s previously referenced are under a crown, they might indicate the Norweigen Koenigsberg arsenal. If not, perhaps a year code for 1934. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

06-15-2004, 12:50 AM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Tom, I'd be curious to see a picture of your toggle marked GERMANY, note how it compared with the one on this gun. The K was not stamped under a crown, or any other place one normally finds a date code--it overstruck the serial number suffix on both the frame and the barrel. --Dwight

06-15-2004, 11:00 PM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Lugerdoc: <strong>Dwight, John is right, I still don't have photo sending capability. If you care to post a photo of yours, I'll be happy to comment on any differences, or if you're willing to pay the postage, I'll loan you the link for closer observation, and hopefully comments here on the forum. TH</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I knew that about the photo capability, I was giving you just a little bit of the elbow <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> I didn't buy the gun, so I can't post a photo--would, if I could--but I'm tempted about the mailing offer, let me think about it. --Dwight