What kind of Luger is this?

P. Ristan · 02-19-2004, 11:11 AM

Hello!
Just bought a 7,65mm luger. But what kind is it? No marking on either the chamber or the toggle.
The serialnumber is 2458. There has been a suffix, but it has been overstamped with a small crown (both on the barrel and frame) identical to the crown above the N in the C/N-stamp. "Hidden-style" serialnumbers.

Here are links to 4 pictures:

http://www.blinkskudd.net/Album/images/gun/pistol/n.jpg

http://www.blinkskudd.net/Album/imag.../pistol/n2.jpg

http://www.blinkskudd.net/Album/imag...l/000_0215.jpg

http://www.blinkskudd.net/Album/imag...l/000_0214.jpg

Can anyone identify this??
Thanks

Lugerdoc · 02-19-2004, 12:14 PM

PR, I too have seen this crown stamp, usually over the suffix letter on frame and barrel of some 20 Commerical lugers that still had the DWM toggle present. An unmarked toggle would suggest 1929 BKIW production. Some say that this crown was added by some Arab nation on the fabled "Riff" contract. To me the crown looks European. Since you are there, perhaps you can identify the nationality of the crown, as each nation's seem to be different. TH

P. Ristan · 02-19-2004, 12:35 PM

The crown stamped over the suffix-letter looks identical to the crown in the C/N-marking.

All I know about the gun is that it came to Norway during WW2 with german troops.

The magazine is nickle-plated and wood-base, and without any markings or serialnumbers at all.

Herb · 02-19-2004, 03:09 PM

PR, according to Costanzo, World of Lugers Proof Marks, page 164, item 26, this crown over N is a 1950 East German proofmark house for the city of Suhl. Used to designate firearms using nitro powder in accordance with the 1950 proofmark law. Noted on the right or left reciever. Other locations noted: L&R side of barrel, left frame rail. R&L breech block, right side of middle toggle link, barrel top and breech block top.

Doubs · 02-19-2004, 03:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Herb:
PR, according to Costanzo, World of Lugers Proof Marks, page 164, item 26, this crown over N is a 1950 East German proofmark house for the city of Suhl.<hr /></blockquote>Herb, the C/N was used prior to WW2 as a commercial proof and will appear on 1920 commercials on the barrel in the location seen in the picture as well as on the left forward receiver wall. Mr. Ristan has indicated that this particular Luger went to Norway during WW2 so it's unlikely to be an E. German rework. Also note the last two digits of the serial number on the underside of the locking bolt. That is another indicator of a pre-WW2 commercial Luger. Finally, all E. German barrels that I've examined have both the C/N proof PLUS the month/year stamp; e.g., "853" designating August of 1953. The barrel of this pistol doesn't have that stamp.

IMO, this pistol is a pre-WW2 commercial along the lines of a 1920 commercial and the reference to a possible BKIW production pistol by Tom would seem very reasonable.

Here's a slightly enhanced portion of the picture that may better show what I'm talking about.

Dwight Gruber · 02-19-2004, 09:21 PM

Herb and Doubs,

About the Crown/N, you are both right. The difference is in the detail of the crown. The 1950 Suhl crown is different in detail from the 1906 Imperial Commercial proof crown.

Here is the comparison, the crown on the left is from the gun pictured above and has the characteristics of the Suhl corwn; the one on the right is an Alphabet Commercial.

Its a bit difficult to see the pertinent details here (the N is overstamped and obscures the bottom of the crown a bit), note particularly the shape and height of the "petals" that form the vertical parts of the Suhl proof, as opposed to the more facet-like parts of the Imperial crown.

Costanzo shows the differences much more clearly on pages 164 and 201.

--Dwight

Herb · 02-19-2004, 10:19 PM

Doubs, the reason I went with the Suhl stamping is that I could not figure out why a 1920 would be 'overstamped', more likely a rework. It may have gone to Norway but it ended up in the DDR apparently.

Pete Ebbink · 02-19-2004, 10:36 PM

Below is page 85 from G. Wirnsberger's book on proof marks.

He indicates Suhl "crowns" did not have the pentagon shape in the middle of the crown...rather the center looks more like a bishops' hat...

Maybe this is what Dwight was referring to when he was discussing "petal" shapes...

Cannot add anymore as I am away from my library and only had a few of the pages in this book on my laptop...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Doubs · 02-20-2004, 12:27 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dwight Gruber:
Herb and Doubs,

About the Crown/N, you are both right. The difference is in the detail of the crown. The 1950 Suhl crown is different in detail from the 1906 Imperial Commercial proof crown.

Here is the comparison, the crown on the left is from the gun pictured above and has the characteristics of the Suhl corwn; the one on the right is an Alphabet Commercial.

...--Dwight<hr /></blockquote>Dwight, I agree...... and I respectfully disagree.

I agree that the difference is in the details and having a couple of E. German reworks with E. German replacement barrels, as well as a 1906 AE with pre-WW1 C/N proofs, this is what I see.

First, the E. German C/N proof is much lower on the barrel than the pre/post-WW1 C/N is stamped. There is a pronounced separation between the C & N of the E. German proof and it's followed by the three digit date. There are no other markings.... no serial number. Note how far up the barrel the C/N on the subject pistol is stamped. Much further than the E. German examples I have.

The Pre/Post-WW1 crown is more squat-looking than the narrower and more slender E. German crown. Moreover, the pre/post-WW1 crown has essentially a 5-sided pentagon in the center vs the more rounded spear-point of the E. German crown center.

Look closely at the E. German crown and you will see that the lines connecting the upper part of the "spear-point" to the outside border flow outward in a curve similar to the leaves of a fleur-de-lea. (Pete's illustration from "The Standard Dictionary of Proof Marks" shows the curve of the E. German crown quite clearly). The pre/post-WW1 lines are as straight as an arrow from the point of the pentagon to the outside shell.

The pentagon of the left proof from the subject pistol has straight lines and the connecting line is also straight..... the marks of a 1920 commercial Luger C/N proof.

I'd also point out that not all stamps will be exactly the same - as I'm sure everyone realizes - due to various factors such as different tool makers, wear etc. If the subject pistol was made in the late 1920's and the comparison pistol was made earlier, different stamps were likely used. The right-hand stamp seems to be from a much sharper die, IMO, but that could be the result of the photographic differences.

Don't overlook the other pictures that show all the ear-marks of a 1920 commercial (blank chamber, locking bolt numbered underneath, sideplate not numbered on the side and standing C/N on the left receiver wall) and NONE of the marks of an E. German rework except a poorly stamped C/N on the barrel in the wrong place to be E. German and that looks to me to be a pre/post-WW1 proof.

Note also that just under the serial number of the subject pistol is what appears to be a stamp over what possibly would be the suffix letter.... another characteristic of the 1920 commercial Luger. I have a 1917 Erfurt E. German re-work with the original Erfurt barrel. There are NO E. German stamps on the barrel at all. It was left original.

Finally, the pistol is claimed to have arrived in Norway during WW2 with German troops and it's still in Norway. For it to travel to E. Germany, be reworked and sent back to Norway is highly unlikely IMO.

P. Ristan · 02-20-2004, 06:39 PM

I don't know Lugers as well as you guy's. But I know a little about the history of this luger.. This luger came to Norway with Lufftwaffe troops during WW2. (It was taken from the local lufftwaffe airfield here where I live..) The gun has been in Norway ever since 1945. It has never been in DDR. The finish is original pre-war.

P. Ristan · 03-10-2004, 02:34 PM

I don't think anyone gave me a really good answer to what this is... Is this a standard variation?? Is it rare? Is it a special contract? What is it? Thanks..

John Sabato · 03-10-2004, 05:10 PM

P. Ristan

I think that all the facts presented indicate that this Luger is a late 1920's (possibly 1929 production) commercial Luger that was apparently owned by a German and brought to Norway during WW2... The 1920 Commercials are one of the most common Lugers and not a rare example. It looks like it is in fine condition.

I trust this has been helpful.

P. Ristan · 03-11-2004, 06:27 AM

Thanks!

Dwight Gruber · 03-11-2004, 11:10 AM

Doubs,

I've been paying a little more attention to real steel, ran into a photo (I think it was a gun on an auction site?) which was patently an early Commercial, with the petal-style Crown/N as on Pete's Luger.

It has been pointed out to me that Costanzo, in his zeal to accurately portray the markings appearing on Lugers, may have made categorical distinctions which (as you point out) could simply have resulted from the dies at hand which satisfy the generic requirement "Crown over the letter N".

--Dwight

Doubs · 03-11-2004, 02:29 PM

Dwight, I had a thought earlier that I would offer to catalog C/N markings if the good members here would take close-up pictures of them and send them to me along with other data concerning the pistol. It may be valuable information. I'm still thinking about it. What do you think?

Vlim · 03-12-2004, 09:38 AM

Hi,

Tried to photograph my Suhl-crown, but got stuck on the limited close-up quality of my camera. So I reworked the illustration so that it matches the real crown a bit more exactly:

The specifics of the post-war crown are that the horizontal marks of the N stick inside quite a bit, as opposed to the old crown-N. Also the Suhl crown is more elongated as opposed to the old crown. This also makes the Suhl crown-N slightly longer. (5mm total length from tip of the crown's cross to the horizonal bottom line of the N).

Dwight Gruber · 03-12-2004, 11:06 AM

Doubs,

I think it will be an interesting exercise.

--Dwight

02-19-2004, 11:11 AM	#1
P. Ristan User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What kind of Luger is this? Hello! Just bought a 7,65mm luger. But what kind is it? No marking on either the chamber or the toggle. The serialnumber is 2458. There has been a suffix, but it has been overstamped with a small crown (both on the barrel and frame) identical to the crown above the N in the C/N-stamp. "Hidden-style" serialnumbers. Here are links to 4 pictures: http://www.blinkskudd.net/Album/images/gun/pistol/n.jpg http://www.blinkskudd.net/Album/imag.../pistol/n2.jpg http://www.blinkskudd.net/Album/imag...l/000_0215.jpg http://www.blinkskudd.net/Album/imag...l/000_0214.jpg Can anyone identify this?? Thanks

02-19-2004, 12:14 PM	#2
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	PR, I too have seen this crown stamp, usually over the suffix letter on frame and barrel of some 20 Commerical lugers that still had the DWM toggle present. An unmarked toggle would suggest 1929 BKIW production. Some say that this crown was added by some Arab nation on the fabled "Riff" contract. To me the crown looks European. Since you are there, perhaps you can identify the nationality of the crown, as each nation's seem to be different. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

02-19-2004, 03:09 PM	#4
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	PR, according to Costanzo, World of Lugers Proof Marks, page 164, item 26, this crown over N is a 1950 East German proofmark house for the city of Suhl. Used to designate firearms using nitro powder in accordance with the 1950 proofmark law. Noted on the right or left reciever. Other locations noted: L&R side of barrel, left frame rail. R&L breech block, right side of middle toggle link, barrel top and breech block top. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

02-19-2004, 03:57 PM	#5
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,698 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,687 Times in 554 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Herb: <strong>PR, according to Costanzo, World of Lugers Proof Marks, page 164, item 26, this crown over N is a 1950 East German proofmark house for the city of Suhl.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Herb, the C/N was used prior to WW2 as a commercial proof and will appear on 1920 commercials on the barrel in the location seen in the picture as well as on the left forward receiver wall. Mr. Ristan has indicated that this particular Luger went to Norway during WW2 so it's unlikely to be an E. German rework. Also note the last two digits of the serial number on the underside of the locking bolt. That is another indicator of a pre-WW2 commercial Luger. Finally, all E. German barrels that I've examined have both the C/N proof PLUS the month/year stamp; e.g., "853" designating August of 1953. The barrel of this pistol doesn't have that stamp. IMO, this pistol is a pre-WW2 commercial along the lines of a 1920 commercial and the reference to a possible BKIW production pistol by Tom would seem very reasonable. Here's a slightly enhanced portion of the picture that may better show what I'm talking about.

02-19-2004, 10:19 PM	#7
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Doubs, the reason I went with the Suhl stamping is that I could not figure out why a 1920 would be 'overstamped', more likely a rework. It may have gone to Norway but it ended up in the DDR apparently. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

02-19-2004, 12:35 PM	#3
P. Ristan User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The crown stamped over the suffix-letter looks identical to the crown in the C/N-marking. All I know about the gun is that it came to Norway during WW2 with german troops. The magazine is nickle-plated and wood-base, and without any markings or serialnumbers at all.

02-19-2004, 09:21 PM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Herb and Doubs, About the Crown/N, you are both right. The difference is in the detail of the crown. The 1950 Suhl crown is different in detail from the 1906 Imperial Commercial proof crown. Here is the comparison, the crown on the left is from the gun pictured above and has the characteristics of the Suhl corwn; the one on the right is an Alphabet Commercial. Its a bit difficult to see the pertinent details here (the N is overstamped and obscures the bottom of the crown a bit), note particularly the shape and height of the "petals" that form the vertical parts of the Suhl proof, as opposed to the more facet-like parts of the Imperial crown. Costanzo shows the differences much more clearly on pages 164 and 201. --Dwight

02-19-2004, 10:36 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Below is page 85 from G. Wirnsberger's book on proof marks. He indicates Suhl "crowns" did not have the pentagon shape in the middle of the crown...rather the center looks more like a bishops' hat... Maybe this is what Dwight was referring to when he was discussing "petal" shapes... Cannot add anymore as I am away from my library and only had a few of the pages in this book on my laptop... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-20-2004, 12:27 AM	#9
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,698 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,687 Times in 554 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Dwight Gruber: <strong>Herb and Doubs, About the Crown/N, you are both right. The difference is in the detail of the crown. The 1950 Suhl crown is different in detail from the 1906 Imperial Commercial proof crown. Here is the comparison, the crown on the left is from the gun pictured above and has the characteristics of the Suhl corwn; the one on the right is an Alphabet Commercial. ...--Dwight</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dwight, I agree...... and I respectfully disagree. I agree that the difference is in the details and having a couple of E. German reworks with E. German replacement barrels, as well as a 1906 AE with pre-WW1 C/N proofs, this is what I see. First, the E. German C/N proof is much lower on the barrel than the pre/post-WW1 C/N is stamped. There is a pronounced separation between the C & N of the E. German proof and it's followed by the three digit date. There are no other markings.... no serial number. Note how far up the barrel the C/N on the subject pistol is stamped. Much further than the E. German examples I have. The Pre/Post-WW1 crown is more squat-looking than the narrower and more slender E. German crown. Moreover, the pre/post-WW1 crown has essentially a 5-sided pentagon in the center vs the more rounded spear-point of the E. German crown center. Look closely at the E. German crown and you will see that the lines connecting the upper part of the "spear-point" to the outside border flow outward in a curve similar to the leaves of a fleur-de-lea. (Pete's illustration from "The Standard Dictionary of Proof Marks" shows the curve of the E. German crown quite clearly). The pre/post-WW1 lines are as straight as an arrow from the point of the pentagon to the outside shell. The pentagon of the left proof from the subject pistol has straight lines and the connecting line is also straight..... the marks of a 1920 commercial Luger C/N proof. I'd also point out that not all stamps will be exactly the same - as I'm sure everyone realizes - due to various factors such as different tool makers, wear etc. If the subject pistol was made in the late 1920's and the comparison pistol was made earlier, different stamps were likely used. The right-hand stamp seems to be from a much sharper die, IMO, but that could be the result of the photographic differences. Don't overlook the other pictures that show all the ear-marks of a 1920 commercial (blank chamber, locking bolt numbered underneath, sideplate not numbered on the side and standing C/N on the left receiver wall) and NONE of the marks of an E. German rework except a poorly stamped C/N on the barrel in the wrong place to be E. German and that looks to me to be a pre/post-WW1 proof. Note also that just under the serial number of the subject pistol is what appears to be a stamp over what possibly would be the suffix letter.... another characteristic of the 1920 commercial Luger. I have a 1917 Erfurt E. German re-work with the original Erfurt barrel. There are NO E. German stamps on the barrel at all. It was left original. Finally, the pistol is claimed to have arrived in Norway during WW2 with German troops and it's still in Norway. For it to travel to E. Germany, be reworked and sent back to Norway is highly unlikely IMO.

02-20-2004, 06:39 PM	#10
P. Ristan User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I don't know Lugers as well as you guy's. But I know a little about the history of this luger.. This luger came to Norway with Lufftwaffe troops during WW2. (It was taken from the local lufftwaffe airfield here where I live..) The gun has been in Norway ever since 1945. It has never been in DDR. The finish is original pre-war.

03-10-2004, 02:34 PM	#11
P. Ristan User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I don't think anyone gave me a really good answer to what this is... Is this a standard variation?? Is it rare? Is it a special contract? What is it? Thanks..

03-10-2004, 05:10 PM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	P. Ristan I think that all the facts presented indicate that this Luger is a late 1920's (possibly 1929 production) commercial Luger that was apparently owned by a German and brought to Norway during WW2... The 1920 Commercials are one of the most common Lugers and not a rare example. It looks like it is in fine condition. I trust this has been helpful. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-11-2004, 06:27 AM	#13
P. Ristan User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks!

03-11-2004, 11:10 AM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Doubs, I've been paying a little more attention to real steel, ran into a photo (I think it was a gun on an auction site?) which was patently an early Commercial, with the petal-style Crown/N as on Pete's Luger. It has been pointed out to me that Costanzo, in his zeal to accurately portray the markings appearing on Lugers, may have made categorical distinctions which (as you point out) could simply have resulted from the dies at hand which satisfy the generic requirement "Crown over the letter N". --Dwight

03-11-2004, 02:29 PM	#15
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,698 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,687 Times in 554 Posts	Dwight, I had a thought earlier that I would offer to catalog C/N markings if the good members here would take close-up pictures of them and send them to me along with other data concerning the pistol. It may be valuable information. I'm still thinking about it. What do you think?

03-12-2004, 09:38 AM	#16
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Tried to photograph my Suhl-crown, but got stuck on the limited close-up quality of my camera. So I reworked the illustration so that it matches the real crown a bit more exactly: The specifics of the post-war crown are that the horizontal marks of the N stick inside quite a bit, as opposed to the old crown-N. Also the Suhl crown is more elongated as opposed to the old crown. This also makes the Suhl crown-N slightly longer. (5mm total length from tip of the crown's cross to the horizonal bottom line of the N).

03-12-2004, 11:06 AM	#17
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Doubs, I think it will be an interesting exercise. --Dwight