1913 Erfurt coming up for sale

trigger643 · 05-09-2003, 08:36 AM

Was just introduced to a 1913 Erfurt from an estate that is going to be put up for auction. Non-import. It is matching externally (I haven't been allowed to take it apart yet), 80% original bluing, 40% straw, no pitting, but scattered freckling with grip straps and holster wear areas turning brown. If the grips are replacements, they are period replacements and have no chips or cracks, but do have several bruises.
The cross pins in the toggle are fire blued and may be replacements? The magazine is mismatched and appears to be period correct but doesn't appear to be an Erfurt and is probably a DWM (numbered). They wish to start it with a reserve of $700.00. What do you think?

Dwight Gruber · 05-09-2003, 11:12 AM

Take it apart, and make sure that everything matches -and- that all the parts have inspector stamps (including the grip screws and the ejector!). If original, the grips will be serial# stamped and have inspector stamps, as well. Fire-blue pins are proper. Estimated production of 1913 Erfurt is 23,000 units (Still, "Imperial Lugers").

IMO $700 is about the maximum one should pay for a gun as described.

It would be instructive to know the ultimate disposition of this Luger. If the auction is of any size I expect the hammer price will surpass $1k.

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 05-09-2003, 01:54 PM

And 80% bluing is a lot of bluing gone from the gun in addition to the scattered freckling.

I'd go to see, but the starting bid, usually doesn't start there unless there are silly people at the auction, or there is a previous written auction(non-present bidder).

So, it all depends on how many people get excited, but as my friend Dwight is guessing, people get excited at seeing a "valuable" Luger up for auction...

Of course, I wouldn't mind getting a 1913 Erfurt, but you can always find a good price if you look long enough.

Ed

trigger643 · 05-09-2003, 11:05 PM

yes, I would kind of like it for myself, but, they won't let me take it apart. It's matching externally, except mag, and I was thinking more like $500.00 for an early example without a stock lug.

Stu · 05-10-2003, 12:58 PM

I think condition would be the key, along with matching numbers. Looking at the auction boards a very average mismatch brings over $500.

I would have thought a matching 1913 in reasonable condition will fetch at least their starting price ? I've got to say I'd like to find one !

Dwight Gruber · 05-10-2003, 02:35 PM

Auction boards give you only one extreme of the pendulum swing. Check Fjestad's Blue Book or Schwing's catalog to get the other extreme. Auctions are a prime motivator of artificially high Luger prices.

--Dwight

Stu · 05-10-2003, 08:40 PM

I think Dwight's comment is fair and true. Could you let me know who Schwing is and how to get their catalog ?

Having said that, in 3 years of looking I've seen 1 luger in a local shop, (double date in reasonable condition but with broken rear pin for $895).

My opinion, when acting as a seller, is to look to where I'll get the best price, currently it seems to be on the internet auctions for average, (ie not high collector grade) guns. Those are actual selling prices for guns available to me.

Price guides are fine and dandy if you can find a seller prepared to be swayed by them. I'm not convinced they're terribly relevant for less than collector grade guns.

I know there are moderately priced Lugers out there, but geography seems to be a factor, because as hard as I've looked I've found none around Atlanta <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Anyone with a 1913 Erfurt, as described, for $500 just let me know where to send my license and check !

Dwight Gruber · 05-11-2003, 01:36 AM

"Standard Catalog of Firearms: The Collector's Price and Reference Guide", Ned Schwing, 1,384 pages, Krause Publications (its an annual publication). Picked my copy up at Borders, Seen it at gun shows, its pretty common.

You are right, gun shop Lugers are pretty scarce. I have been told that one really needs to dig for them, stop at every garage sale, every junk store, talk to everybody--they do come out of the woodwork.

What are the gun shows like in your part of the territory? I have discovered that even in shows where there don't appear to be any Lugers, occasionally someone has one "under the table". Also, walk around gun shows with a sign pinned to your chest saying "looking for Lugers", or suchlike. You'd be surprised what sometimes walks through the door, that you can flush out this way.

--Dwight

Stu · 05-11-2003, 11:27 AM

Thanks for the Schwing info Dwight. The gunshows around Eastern Atlanta are pretty much geared to modern stuff; very few collectibles, (apart from SOG's, century's and AIM's latest imports).

The few that do show up are too expensive even for my poor buying habits, (look at that, must have, it's only $100 to much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . Chromed P38's at $500, import mismatch Lugers at $650 type of thing. Makes reading this board frustrating at time !

I suspect that apparent lack of collectibles may have to do with Atlanta being a large and transient area. A lot of people moving in and out, many being pretty computer literate pushing up prices based on what the see at the auctions, (as you rightly noted). Added to that their relatives and roots are pretty far away reducing the chance of finding the 'it was in the back of the cupboard, you can have it for $250 if you want' type deal.

Similarly, I believe the real local population tend to buy and sell guns in a network I've not found yet, some of them really aren't keen on dealing with 'immigrants' like myself ! (One gunshop in the area is just downright abusive to non locals). Just got to keep trying.

One reality I do subscribe too is that a thing is worth what someone will pay and another accept for it; the price guides reflect an historical trend but the breadth and depth of access the internet has provided has created a more volatile and informed market.

Enough whining; time to go shoot up some WalMart Winchester !

Big Norm · 05-12-2003, 01:03 AM

I got a real beauty of a 1913 Erfurt about a month ago. It has a hold open and a stock lug. But the bluing was 95%+ and the bore was too good to be true. I really eyeballed the barrel and its markings for a long time before I decided it was the real thing and that everything was original blue. Matching Mag too. Paid $1100 for it. I think that I got my moneys worth. It goes well with its sister 1912 which is in just as good a shape except for some minor pitting. That one also had a hold open added but no stock lug.
Sometimes a good looking Luger is just like a good looking woman. They just seem to pop up out of the blue when you least expect them.
Big Norm

Tom Porter · 06-10-2003, 02:36 PM

I've lived in Atlanta for many years and it has always been a dealers market. All the good stuff I have found came from dealer friends that know what I am looking for and hold things for me. Any thing (good) put out on a table at a show goes "Poof".
Tom

Sgt Art · 06-10-2003, 03:25 PM

Is it anything like this one?

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=9366027

Personally, I think the seller is delirious

lugerholsterrepair · 06-10-2003, 08:46 PM

Big Norm, If you find a good looking Woman for $1100.00 let me know...Jerry Burney

Ron Wood · 06-10-2003, 10:47 PM

OK Jerry...you know it isn't the initial cost of a good looking Woman, it is the maintenance that adds up to real money. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

05-09-2003, 08:36 AM	#1
trigger643 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Murfreesboro Posts: 502 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	1913 Erfurt coming up for sale Was just introduced to a 1913 Erfurt from an estate that is going to be put up for auction. Non-import. It is matching externally (I haven't been allowed to take it apart yet), 80% original bluing, 40% straw, no pitting, but scattered freckling with grip straps and holster wear areas turning brown. If the grips are replacements, they are period replacements and have no chips or cracks, but do have several bruises. The cross pins in the toggle are fire blued and may be replacements? The magazine is mismatched and appears to be period correct but doesn't appear to be an Erfurt and is probably a DWM (numbered). They wish to start it with a reserve of $700.00. What do you think? __________________ "There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face." Ã¢?? Krusty the Clown

05-09-2003, 01:54 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	And 80% bluing is a lot of bluing gone from the gun in addition to the scattered freckling. I'd go to see, but the starting bid, usually doesn't start there unless there are silly people at the auction, or there is a previous written auction(non-present bidder). So, it all depends on how many people get excited, but as my friend Dwight is guessing, people get excited at seeing a "valuable" Luger up for auction... Of course, I wouldn't mind getting a 1913 Erfurt, but you can always find a good price if you look long enough. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-09-2003, 11:05 PM	#4
trigger643 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Murfreesboro Posts: 502 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	yes, I would kind of like it for myself, but, they won't let me take it apart. It's matching externally, except mag, and I was thinking more like $500.00 for an early example without a stock lug. __________________ "There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face." Ã¢?? Krusty the Clown

06-10-2003, 08:46 PM	#13
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Big Norm, If you find a good looking Woman for $1100.00 let me know...Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-10-2003, 10:47 PM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	OK Jerry...you know it isn't the initial cost of a good looking Woman, it is the maintenance that adds up to real money. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-09-2003, 11:12 AM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Take it apart, and make sure that everything matches -and- that all the parts have inspector stamps (including the grip screws and the ejector!). If original, the grips will be serial# stamped and have inspector stamps, as well. Fire-blue pins are proper. Estimated production of 1913 Erfurt is 23,000 units (Still, "Imperial Lugers"). IMO $700 is about the maximum one should pay for a gun as described. It would be instructive to know the ultimate disposition of this Luger. If the auction is of any size I expect the hammer price will surpass $1k. --Dwight

05-10-2003, 12:58 PM	#5
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	I think condition would be the key, along with matching numbers. Looking at the auction boards a very average mismatch brings over $500. I would have thought a matching 1913 in reasonable condition will fetch at least their starting price ? I've got to say I'd like to find one !

05-10-2003, 02:35 PM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Auction boards give you only one extreme of the pendulum swing. Check Fjestad's Blue Book or Schwing's catalog to get the other extreme. Auctions are a prime motivator of artificially high Luger prices. --Dwight

05-10-2003, 08:40 PM	#7
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	I think Dwight's comment is fair and true. Could you let me know who Schwing is and how to get their catalog ? Having said that, in 3 years of looking I've seen 1 luger in a local shop, (double date in reasonable condition but with broken rear pin for $895). My opinion, when acting as a seller, is to look to where I'll get the best price, currently it seems to be on the internet auctions for average, (ie not high collector grade) guns. Those are actual selling prices for guns available to me. Price guides are fine and dandy if you can find a seller prepared to be swayed by them. I'm not convinced they're terribly relevant for less than collector grade guns. I know there are moderately priced Lugers out there, but geography seems to be a factor, because as hard as I've looked I've found none around Atlanta <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Anyone with a 1913 Erfurt, as described, for $500 just let me know where to send my license and check !

05-11-2003, 01:36 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	"Standard Catalog of Firearms: The Collector's Price and Reference Guide", Ned Schwing, 1,384 pages, Krause Publications (its an annual publication). Picked my copy up at Borders, Seen it at gun shows, its pretty common. You are right, gun shop Lugers are pretty scarce. I have been told that one really needs to dig for them, stop at every garage sale, every junk store, talk to everybody--they do come out of the woodwork. What are the gun shows like in your part of the territory? I have discovered that even in shows where there don't appear to be any Lugers, occasionally someone has one "under the table". Also, walk around gun shows with a sign pinned to your chest saying "looking for Lugers", or suchlike. You'd be surprised what sometimes walks through the door, that you can flush out this way. --Dwight

05-11-2003, 11:27 AM	#9
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Thanks for the Schwing info Dwight. The gunshows around Eastern Atlanta are pretty much geared to modern stuff; very few collectibles, (apart from SOG's, century's and AIM's latest imports). The few that do show up are too expensive even for my poor buying habits, (look at that, must have, it's only $100 to much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . Chromed P38's at $500, import mismatch Lugers at $650 type of thing. Makes reading this board frustrating at time ! I suspect that apparent lack of collectibles may have to do with Atlanta being a large and transient area. A lot of people moving in and out, many being pretty computer literate pushing up prices based on what the see at the auctions, (as you rightly noted). Added to that their relatives and roots are pretty far away reducing the chance of finding the 'it was in the back of the cupboard, you can have it for $250 if you want' type deal. Similarly, I believe the real local population tend to buy and sell guns in a network I've not found yet, some of them really aren't keen on dealing with 'immigrants' like myself ! (One gunshop in the area is just downright abusive to non locals). Just got to keep trying. One reality I do subscribe too is that a thing is worth what someone will pay and another accept for it; the price guides reflect an historical trend but the breadth and depth of access the internet has provided has created a more volatile and informed market. Enough whining; time to go shoot up some WalMart Winchester !

05-12-2003, 01:03 AM	#10
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I got a real beauty of a 1913 Erfurt about a month ago. It has a hold open and a stock lug. But the bluing was 95%+ and the bore was too good to be true. I really eyeballed the barrel and its markings for a long time before I decided it was the real thing and that everything was original blue. Matching Mag too. Paid $1100 for it. I think that I got my moneys worth. It goes well with its sister 1912 which is in just as good a shape except for some minor pitting. That one also had a hold open added but no stock lug. Sometimes a good looking Luger is just like a good looking woman. They just seem to pop up out of the blue when you least expect them. Big Norm

06-10-2003, 02:36 PM	#11
Tom Porter User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Atlanta Ga. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've lived in Atlanta for many years and it has always been a dealers market. All the good stuff I have found came from dealer friends that know what I am looking for and hold things for me. Any thing (good) put out on a table at a show goes "Poof". Tom

06-10-2003, 03:25 PM	#12
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Is it anything like this one? http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=9366027 Personally, I think the seller is delirious