British Proofs...?

Pete Ebbink · 06-06-2003, 02:01 AM

As we have seen on the LF from time to time, some lugers find there way to England and gain some British proofs.

Just wondering if advanced collectors see the presence of British Proofs a "-" or a "+" as to a luger's value...?

I think such proofs "add" to the documentation and history of a pistol, but my opinion might just be amatueristic...

Regards,

Pete...

unspellable · 06-06-2003, 09:24 AM

I have a 1917 DWM all matching with British proofs. I don't know what this does for the value, but for myself I like having one with the British proofs.

Luke · 06-06-2003, 08:08 PM

Pete,

I have a very nice 1911 DWM, all matching including magazine, which has British proofs. It appears to be a completely honest gun, and I am confident the matching mag was not a phony.

At the time I bought it I made the same inquiry that you posted here. Consensus was that the British proofs lowered the value of the Luger.

Personally, I disagree and am quite happy with this gun. I feel that the British proofs further add to the gun's history and do not diminish it in any way. Just my HO.

Luke

Luke · 06-07-2003, 12:21 PM

tac -

I have no disagreement with the statement that the resale (perceived) value would be less than a pristine Luger which had only DWM markings. That is probably the case. I was simply making a statement about its value to me, personally.
I kind of like the gun with the British proofs; and, since I am not ever going to sell it, that is a more relevant question for my heirs.

You and I exchanged several emails on this subject at the time I bought the gun, over a year ago.

I believe you advised that, since it had no import markings on it, the gun could have belonged to a WW-I vet who left it as part of his estate. It was my understanding that, if such had been the case, your government would have required that the gun be British proofed before it could be sold in England by the vet's heirs.

Luke

Pete Ebbink · 06-07-2003, 01:04 PM

I think I lean towards Luke's sentiments, as well.

My analogy would be owning a 50-year old steamer trunk that looks like the day it left the factory. For a steamer trunk, I would like mine to show some wear, dents, and all of those country-visited stamps...but of course; lugers are not trunks...

For a war-time luger, my preference is to have the piece show evidence of that service and maybe some evidence of transfer to another country after capture...

But I do understand the value-point. Nothing beats a truly factory-mint piece for top dollar...

I would think every luger collector might have room in his/her collection for one war-time luger that shows use and travel...don't you...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Lugers down under · 06-07-2003, 05:29 PM

We see a number of guns here in New Zealand that have British proof marks, there are some good points and bad.
On a luger, which is only shooter quality, the British Nitro proof marks at least ensure that the gun will not blow up when you shoot it.
On some of my guns in my collection which are not Lugers ,yes there are a few, the presence of the BNP is an advantage. For example, in my Thompson SMG collection, I have a number of British 1928A1 Tommy Guns that were part of the "lend leases" in WW2 , There, the BNP is a item of support in the origin and history of the Gun.
On a Borchart purchased from say from Weller & Dufty in Birmingham, one would prefer the gun not to have the BNP but hey! "Beggers can't be chosers"
Regards
Murray.

Lugers down under · 06-08-2003, 06:09 AM

Hey Tac,
No I haven't got a Borshart and I very much wish I did, but what I meant was, that if I did and it was BNP I wouldn't mind a bit.
Regards
Murray

Lugerdoc · 06-09-2003, 10:59 AM

It would appear from the above comments from our Commonwelth members, that the BNPs to them are equilivant to the importer marking seen on many guns, here in the states. As time passes, these markings seem to loose some importance. Actually, a BNPed Borchardt sounds a bit more exotic than one marked "Germany". TH

Jim Keenan · 06-09-2003, 11:17 PM

It seems to me that those kinds of markings have one thing in common - people can accept them or not have the guns. There are, as mentioned, exceptions to every rule, but most of us either don't know of them or can't practically use them.

A pristine, 100%, all factory gun is nice to have, but if an affordable Luger (or any other gun) has an import or proof mark, and one without is unavailable or unaffordable, I for one will opt for the marked Luger over no Luger. Further, I would probably choose an otherwise 99-100% Luger with an import mark over an identical 60% gun without.

Now, if I hit the lottery....

Jim

Edward Tinker · 06-09-2003, 11:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It seems to me that those kinds of markings have one thing in common - people can accept them or not have the guns. There are, as mentioned, exceptions to every rule, but most of us either don't know of them or can't practically use them.<hr /></blockquote>Well said Jim, that is the crux of the matter isn't it. We either compromise and have a rep piece or compromise and have a lesser piece or have NOTHING.

Ed

Navy · 06-10-2003, 12:14 AM

Steamed Foley et al,

It is my understanding that when the late Sam Cummings, founder and CEO of INTERARMS, decided to store the majority of his inventory in the UK (And a substantial inventory it was, something like the equivalent of 200 freight cars or as Steamed Tac would say "goods carriages")a deal was cut between HM government to the effect that there would be a representative sample of pieces proofed at Birmingham and, assuming success, the balance of inventory would receive BNP proofs.

I have ABSOLUTELY no documentation of this, it was told to me by a long time INTERARMS employee some years ago. I have, however, owned 'brooms, toggletops, P-38's and the odd M1911 that had the BNP *Not English Make* stamp. The anecdote seems very reasonable and logical; I shall choose to believe it until a better explanation comes along.

This guy had the best job in the world, but more about that some other time.

Tom A.

Luke · 06-12-2003, 06:08 PM

Tac -

Another question, please. My 1911 DWM Luger has the BNP proofs all over, but it does NOT have the "Not English Make" stamp anywhere, nor does it have "Germany" stamped on it anywhere.

Does this mean anything to you?

Thanks for your help.

Luke

Pete Ebbink · 07-10-2003, 02:14 PM

Just noticed Bob Simpson has a Commercial Navy for sale with British proofs.

Thought folks might want to take a look to see what the British proofs look like :

http://www.simpsonltd.com/C4547_dwm_...rcial_navy.htm

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Dwight Gruber · 07-11-2003, 03:57 AM

Pete,

Thanks for posting the link to the Commercial Navy, very interesting to see those markings.

Here are the barrel proofs on a Vickers.

At least there is no question of their belonging on this gun!

Regarding the original question in this thread, in my opinion, British proofs are an interesting part of the story of a Luger which they are on. Given two identical pistols however, one of which has British proofs and the other which does not, the British proofed gun is devalued compared to the other.

I think this comes from there being no official or contract British acceptance of the Luger. British proofs are on these guns by an arbitrary legislative act, not as part of an an official, organized procurement system. They are not dissimilar from U.S. import marks in this respect.

--Dwight

Pete Ebbink · 07-11-2003, 12:08 PM

Dwight,

I agree with all you say...

But the British proofs are an indication of some 'safety checks' performed on the gun before it was allowed to be sold in England.

Our import marks are just that; an inventory mark of which vendor happened to bring it into the USA. No implicit statement for the gun's condition or its safety...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Luke · 07-11-2003, 03:41 PM

Good point, Pete.

In fact, the stamping on the barrel on my 1911 DWM indicates that it was tested to 15 tons per square inch. Tacfoley, who described the British testing process, assured me that this number was quite high for a handgun.

Luke

ToggleTop · 07-11-2003, 09:29 PM

This is just an observation from an old man. I can remember 35 years ago when unit marked lugers were overlooked by luger buyers. No one wanted a luger with all that metal stamping on it. As you know this has all changed, collections are now built around unit marked police and army lugers. I can remember the same being true of British proofed lugers. Some luger dealers used to advertise them as British captured pistols. I believe most of the British proofs you see were done in the 1950's if I am correct. The British proofed pistols do have a place in collections. I once had a 1917 Artillery that was mint and it had the most beautiful British proofs on it. A dog of a luger with British proofs does not command a very good price!

06-06-2003, 02:01 AM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	British Proofs...? As we have seen on the LF from time to time, some lugers find there way to England and gain some British proofs. Just wondering if advanced collectors see the presence of British Proofs a "-" or a "+" as to a luger's value...? I think such proofs "add" to the documentation and history of a pistol, but my opinion might just be amatueristic... Regards, Pete...

06-06-2003, 08:08 PM	#3
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Pete, I have a very nice 1911 DWM, all matching including magazine, which has British proofs. It appears to be a completely honest gun, and I am confident the matching mag was not a phony. At the time I bought it I made the same inquiry that you posted here. Consensus was that the British proofs lowered the value of the Luger. Personally, I disagree and am quite happy with this gun. I feel that the British proofs further add to the gun's history and do not diminish it in any way. Just my HO. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-07-2003, 12:21 PM	#4
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	tac - I have no disagreement with the statement that the resale (perceived) value would be less than a pristine Luger which had only DWM markings. That is probably the case. I was simply making a statement about its value to me, personally. I kind of like the gun with the British proofs; and, since I am not ever going to sell it, that is a more relevant question for my heirs. You and I exchanged several emails on this subject at the time I bought the gun, over a year ago. I believe you advised that, since it had no import markings on it, the gun could have belonged to a WW-I vet who left it as part of his estate. It was my understanding that, if such had been the case, your government would have required that the gun be British proofed before it could be sold in England by the vet's heirs. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-07-2003, 05:29 PM	#6
Lugers down under User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Great Barrier Island, New Zealand Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	We see a number of guns here in New Zealand that have British proof marks, there are some good points and bad. On a luger, which is only shooter quality, the British Nitro proof marks at least ensure that the gun will not blow up when you shoot it. On some of my guns in my collection which are not Lugers ,yes there are a few, the presence of the BNP is an advantage. For example, in my Thompson SMG collection, I have a number of British 1928A1 Tommy Guns that were part of the "lend leases" in WW2 , There, the BNP is a item of support in the origin and history of the Gun. On a Borchart purchased from say from Weller & Dufty in Birmingham, one would prefer the gun not to have the BNP but hey! "Beggers can't be chosers" Regards Murray. __________________ Lugers down under

06-08-2003, 06:09 AM	#7
Lugers down under User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Great Barrier Island, New Zealand Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Hey Tac, No I haven't got a Borshart and I very much wish I did, but what I meant was, that if I did and it was BNP I wouldn't mind a bit. Regards Murray __________________ Lugers down under

06-06-2003, 09:24 AM	#2
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	I have a 1917 DWM all matching with British proofs. I don't know what this does for the value, but for myself I like having one with the British proofs.

06-07-2003, 01:04 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	I think I lean towards Luke's sentiments, as well. My analogy would be owning a 50-year old steamer trunk that looks like the day it left the factory. For a steamer trunk, I would like mine to show some wear, dents, and all of those country-visited stamps...but of course; lugers are not trunks... For a war-time luger, my preference is to have the piece show evidence of that service and maybe some evidence of transfer to another country after capture... But I do understand the value-point. Nothing beats a truly factory-mint piece for top dollar... I would think every luger collector might have room in his/her collection for one war-time luger that shows use and travel...don't you...? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

06-09-2003, 10:59 AM	#8
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	It would appear from the above comments from our Commonwelth members, that the BNPs to them are equilivant to the importer marking seen on many guns, here in the states. As time passes, these markings seem to loose some importance. Actually, a BNPed Borchardt sounds a bit more exotic than one marked "Germany". TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

06-09-2003, 11:17 PM	#9
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	It seems to me that those kinds of markings have one thing in common - people can accept them or not have the guns. There are, as mentioned, exceptions to every rule, but most of us either don't know of them or can't practically use them. A pristine, 100%, all factory gun is nice to have, but if an affordable Luger (or any other gun) has an import or proof mark, and one without is unavailable or unaffordable, I for one will opt for the marked Luger over no Luger. Further, I would probably choose an otherwise 99-100% Luger with an import mark over an identical 60% gun without. Now, if I hit the lottery.... Jim

06-09-2003, 11:41 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">It seems to me that those kinds of markings have one thing in common - people can accept them or not have the guns. There are, as mentioned, exceptions to every rule, but most of us either don't know of them or can't practically use them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Well said Jim, that is the crux of the matter isn't it. We either compromise and have a rep piece or compromise and have a lesser piece or have NOTHING. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-10-2003, 12:14 AM	#11
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Steamed Foley et al, It is my understanding that when the late Sam Cummings, founder and CEO of INTERARMS, decided to store the majority of his inventory in the UK (And a substantial inventory it was, something like the equivalent of 200 freight cars or as Steamed Tac would say "goods carriages")a deal was cut between HM government to the effect that there would be a representative sample of pieces proofed at Birmingham and, assuming success, the balance of inventory would receive BNP proofs. I have ABSOLUTELY no documentation of this, it was told to me by a long time INTERARMS employee some years ago. I have, however, owned 'brooms, toggletops, P-38's and the odd M1911 that had the BNP Not English Make stamp. The anecdote seems very reasonable and logical; I shall choose to believe it until a better explanation comes along. This guy had the best job in the world, but more about that some other time. Tom A.

06-12-2003, 06:08 PM	#12
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Tac - Another question, please. My 1911 DWM Luger has the BNP proofs all over, but it does NOT have the "Not English Make" stamp anywhere, nor does it have "Germany" stamped on it anywhere. Does this mean anything to you? Thanks for your help. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

07-10-2003, 02:14 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Just noticed Bob Simpson has a Commercial Navy for sale with British proofs. Thought folks might want to take a look to see what the British proofs look like : http://www.simpsonltd.com/C4547_dwm_...rcial_navy.htm Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-11-2003, 03:57 AM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Pete, Thanks for posting the link to the Commercial Navy, very interesting to see those markings. Here are the barrel proofs on a Vickers. At least there is no question of their belonging on this gun! Regarding the original question in this thread, in my opinion, British proofs are an interesting part of the story of a Luger which they are on. Given two identical pistols however, one of which has British proofs and the other which does not, the British proofed gun is devalued compared to the other. I think this comes from there being no official or contract British acceptance of the Luger. British proofs are on these guns by an arbitrary legislative act, not as part of an an official, organized procurement system. They are not dissimilar from U.S. import marks in this respect. --Dwight

07-11-2003, 12:08 PM	#15
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Dwight, I agree with all you say... But the British proofs are an indication of some 'safety checks' performed on the gun before it was allowed to be sold in England. Our import marks are just that; an inventory mark of which vendor happened to bring it into the USA. No implicit statement for the gun's condition or its safety... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-11-2003, 03:41 PM	#16
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Good point, Pete. In fact, the stamping on the barrel on my 1911 DWM indicates that it was tested to 15 tons per square inch. Tacfoley, who described the British testing process, assured me that this number was quite high for a handgun. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

07-11-2003, 09:29 PM	#17
ToggleTop User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: TN Posts: 297 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This is just an observation from an old man. I can remember 35 years ago when unit marked lugers were overlooked by luger buyers. No one wanted a luger with all that metal stamping on it. As you know this has all changed, collections are now built around unit marked police and army lugers. I can remember the same being true of British proofed lugers. Some luger dealers used to advertise them as British captured pistols. I believe most of the British proofs you see were done in the 1950's if I am correct. The British proofed pistols do have a place in collections. I once had a 1917 Artillery that was mint and it had the most beautiful British proofs on it. A dog of a luger with British proofs does not command a very good price! __________________ *********************** ToggleTop************* JustHappenToLoveLugers *************************