Swiss Expert Needed

Herb · 09-16-2002, 07:23 PM

I just recieved a Swiss magazine from a gentleman in Norway. It is a very high quality nickel plated magazine with a black plastic bottom. It appears to have never been used. It differs from a regular magazine in that it has a tiny 'lip' extention on the forward mouth of the mag and it weighs slightly more than a normal mag. The back side has a stylized 'P' on it and on the right side of the bottom knob there is a tiny '+' inside the concave surface. According to Costanzo, page 178, item #73, this is a Swiss manufacture magazine proof used on 1929/06 models by Paillard St. Coroix. While checking the Luger Handbook by Aarron Davis, page 30 he indicates that the 1906/29 was a special assembly presentation piece and only three are know to exist. Surely I haven't stumbled onto one of only three, what is the real story here? 1929/06 vs: 1906/29? Nearly forgot-it has the old style round spring, not the newer zig zag type.

Ron Wood · 09-16-2002, 08:58 PM

Sounds like a regular '29 Swiss mag. Not sure about the "tiny lip extension", can't quite picture that. Can you post a picture?

I think the difference is one of nomenclature. Constanzo is calling the '29 Swiss a "1929/06" whereas Davis' reference for "1906/29" is the very few transition pieces (Special Assembly) from the 1906 Waffenfabrik Bern model to the 1929 Waffenfabrik Bern, that were made up supposedly as marksmanship prizes. They had the 1906 frame configuration and the 1929 cannon configuration, and the "hump" on the sideplate extended the full width of the sideplate like the 1929 model.

The '29 mag is as you described, with two retaining pins in the bottom plastic base.

Herb · 09-16-2002, 10:10 PM

Thanks Ron, I tried to post a pic of the little lip on the mag but the digital camera has decided to take a break, it won't download to the computer. Working.

Lugerdoc · 09-17-2002, 10:34 AM

Herb, Just you give you an idea of the value of your M29 Swiss nickle plated P with backwards B (Berner Probe -- Bern Proofed) mag, I sell them new @$75 and used @$50. Tom H.

Herb · 09-17-2002, 11:49 AM

Ron, going for a pic upload showing the unusual lip on the mouth of the mag. Lugerdoc, it has no backward B, just the cross and the P on the back.

Ron Wood · 09-17-2002, 12:55 PM

Herb,
I have two mint magazines with my '29 Swiss, both exactly like yours (P, cross and no Berner Probe)except they do not have that little lip. I have not seen that before. Wonder if it was formed it to make the magazine feed better? Will it insert into a Luger with no difficulty?

Herb · 09-17-2002, 01:15 PM

Tried it in 5 different Lugers, 3 different manufacturers, fits perfectly in all of them, drops out with no binding. It does appear to have been made to assist the round in chambering, interesting. Could this really be one of three? (I hope, I hope, I hope)

Ron Wood · 09-17-2002, 03:19 PM

Herb,
There probably is no way of knowing. I suspect that the magazines in the 1906/29 Special Assembly were just like the standard 1929 Swiss magazines. Of the three 1906/29 pieces, photos exist of 33090 (Lugers at Random, Kenyon) and 33092 (Monograph IV, The Swiss Variations 1897-1947, Datig; and Parabellum, A Technical History of Swiss Lugers, Bobba). In the photos in Kenyon and Datig, the magazine bottom piece is "plastic" (black bakelite) but there is no way to determine any markings. Serial number 33092 originally belonged to Datig and it is interesting to note that in his picture from about 1966 the magazine base is bakelite, but in the more recent picture in Bobba the magazine has been replaced with one having a wood base. According to Bobba, there is strong evidence that 330933 and 33094 also existed.

Herb · 09-17-2002, 04:14 PM

Thanks for the info Ron. It is interesting that the mag bases were switched, or that the complete mags had been switched, as the wood base models were for the earlier pistols. I'll probably never find out the significance of that little lip on this mag.

Lugerdoc · 09-18-2002, 10:41 AM

Herb, You are correct about the spine marking on your M29 Swiss mag just being a stylized "P", not the BP barrel test proof. IMHO, the lip on the top front of your mag, is just damage from a lot of use, where the metal has stretched out and reformed by the barrel feed ramp. Tom H.

Herb · 09-18-2002, 02:12 PM

Tom, it was definitely made that way. If you look closely at the picture you can see the fine machining marks on the follower haven't even been marred from loading rounds into it. It appears to be unused.

09-16-2002, 07:23 PM	#1
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Swiss Expert Needed I just recieved a Swiss magazine from a gentleman in Norway. It is a very high quality nickel plated magazine with a black plastic bottom. It appears to have never been used. It differs from a regular magazine in that it has a tiny 'lip' extention on the forward mouth of the mag and it weighs slightly more than a normal mag. The back side has a stylized 'P' on it and on the right side of the bottom knob there is a tiny '+' inside the concave surface. According to Costanzo, page 178, item #73, this is a Swiss manufacture magazine proof used on 1929/06 models by Paillard St. Coroix. While checking the Luger Handbook by Aarron Davis, page 30 he indicates that the 1906/29 was a special assembly presentation piece and only three are know to exist. Surely I haven't stumbled onto one of only three, what is the real story here? 1929/06 vs: 1906/29? Nearly forgot-it has the old style round spring, not the newer zig zag type. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

09-16-2002, 08:58 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Sounds like a regular '29 Swiss mag. Not sure about the "tiny lip extension", can't quite picture that. Can you post a picture? I think the difference is one of nomenclature. Constanzo is calling the '29 Swiss a "1929/06" whereas Davis' reference for "1906/29" is the very few transition pieces (Special Assembly) from the 1906 Waffenfabrik Bern model to the 1929 Waffenfabrik Bern, that were made up supposedly as marksmanship prizes. They had the 1906 frame configuration and the 1929 cannon configuration, and the "hump" on the sideplate extended the full width of the sideplate like the 1929 model. The '29 mag is as you described, with two retaining pins in the bottom plastic base. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-16-2002, 10:10 PM	#3
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks Ron, I tried to post a pic of the little lip on the mag but the digital camera has decided to take a break, it won't download to the computer. Working. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

09-17-2002, 10:34 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Herb, Just you give you an idea of the value of your M29 Swiss nickle plated P with backwards B (Berner Probe -- Bern Proofed) mag, I sell them new @$75 and used @$50. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

09-17-2002, 11:49 AM	#5
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ron, going for a pic upload showing the unusual lip on the mouth of the mag. Lugerdoc, it has no backward B, just the cross and the P on the back. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

09-17-2002, 12:55 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Herb, I have two mint magazines with my '29 Swiss, both exactly like yours (P, cross and no Berner Probe)except they do not have that little lip. I have not seen that before. Wonder if it was formed it to make the magazine feed better? Will it insert into a Luger with no difficulty? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-17-2002, 01:15 PM	#7
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Tried it in 5 different Lugers, 3 different manufacturers, fits perfectly in all of them, drops out with no binding. It does appear to have been made to assist the round in chambering, interesting. Could this really be one of three? (I hope, I hope, I hope) __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

09-17-2002, 03:19 PM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Herb, There probably is no way of knowing. I suspect that the magazines in the 1906/29 Special Assembly were just like the standard 1929 Swiss magazines. Of the three 1906/29 pieces, photos exist of 33090 (Lugers at Random, Kenyon) and 33092 (Monograph IV, The Swiss Variations 1897-1947, Datig; and Parabellum, A Technical History of Swiss Lugers, Bobba). In the photos in Kenyon and Datig, the magazine bottom piece is "plastic" (black bakelite) but there is no way to determine any markings. Serial number 33092 originally belonged to Datig and it is interesting to note that in his picture from about 1966 the magazine base is bakelite, but in the more recent picture in Bobba the magazine has been replaced with one having a wood base. According to Bobba, there is strong evidence that 330933 and 33094 also existed. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-17-2002, 04:14 PM	#9
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks for the info Ron. It is interesting that the mag bases were switched, or that the complete mags had been switched, as the wood base models were for the earlier pistols. I'll probably never find out the significance of that little lip on this mag. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

09-18-2002, 10:41 AM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Herb, You are correct about the spine marking on your M29 Swiss mag just being a stylized "P", not the BP barrel test proof. IMHO, the lip on the top front of your mag, is just damage from a lot of use, where the metal has stretched out and reformed by the barrel feed ramp. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

09-18-2002, 02:12 PM	#11
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Tom, it was definitely made that way. If you look closely at the picture you can see the fine machining marks on the follower haven't even been marred from loading rounds into it. It appears to be unused. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull