Real Tool Pouch, Or Not...?

[Pete Ebbink]

The following Swiss tool pouch/kit is now on auction on e-Bay :



Then, in another auction on e-Bay, a seller writes the following :

" Be careful : some bidder asked me for an "original leather pouch for cleaning gear" . i am sorry : there is NEVER been an ORIGINAL LEATHER POUCH FOR CLEANING GEAR , if have checked it at swiss literature. If you like to buy a fake , its yours ! Watch swiss army used to carry their handguns in a holster with a houlder strap. Some rare holsters have a reserve magazin pouch fixed on top of holster lid . A cleaning rod has never been fixed like at some German holsters. Sometimes you would find a leather pouch for for three clips standing upright , ask for a pic ! But small swiss made poches had other functions , most for hold ammo cardboxes 16 rounds each or , loading frames fur Swiss carbine Schmid-Rubin K 31 , a med kit but never any cleaning gear. Original cleaning gear for revolver 1882 , parabellum 1900 and 1906 made of brass until break out of WW 1 . During WW1 and later housing made of blued steel. Swiss books you may look at: PISTOLEN UND REVOLVER DER SCHWEIZ by Christian Reinhart , SWISS HANDGUNS (english texts !!)by Haesler , FAUSTFEUERWAFFEN DER EIDGENOSSEN by Rutsch and SWISS ARMY MANUALS. Better than Datig ... If you are interested in a book SCHWEIZER FAUSTFEUERWAFFEN by Haesler , text in german AND english , watch for my other auctions comimg up next "

I noticed in the following books, the tool kit pouch is shown containing the tool kit and grease/oil can :

Vittorio Bobba's book, on page 196.

Eugene Bender's book, on page 496.

My questions are :

1. Did the Swiss use the pouch to carry their cleaning kits and accessories ?

2. If not, where (how) did they carry these ?

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Russ]

Pete
The last time i talked to Bob Lewis, he said that they were real. In fact I bought one from him then. In my opinion they are real. That is my .02 worth.

[Navy]

Hi All,

Lets see..
A Swiss Luger afficinado says they are bogus and provides documentation; An American dealer, (No conflict of interest here!) says they are real and sells one based on this BFA. My, my, my I need to get back into sales.

Tom A.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Tom,

1. Would it be possible for you (or others) that might have the European books referenced to scan the relevant pages and post them here so we might be able to read that information. Some of us have not yet been able to buy every possible luger book that is out there, yet...

2. I thought Mr. Bobba and Mr. Bender were pretty well researched and acknowldeged experts in their own right. Seeing these two authors post photos in their book just lead this luger beginner to believe that these small pouches might have been used to carry the swiss cleaning kits and, yes, other items as well such as loose ammo.

I was not aware that these two authors were "incorrect" in their photo postings. If they have been "proven" wrong", I would love to have the right understanding...and maybe if you could post these other authors' information, I would be more well-informed.

3. My impression of Mr. Bob Lewis when I met him at Reno is that he was just displaying his very fine Swiss collection. Nothing at his table was priced and tagged for sale. I did not think he was a "dealer". I would appreciate knowing if my impressions of Mr. Lewis were wrong.

I did very much appreciate the fact that Mr. Lewis spent the time with me (and Doc Herb Fisher) at his table to give us a really good swiss lesson...and overview of his great swiss luger display.

Respectfully,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Navy]

Hi Pete,

Regrettably, my lack of time (I rolled from one client to the next on Dec 21 and have yet to have a day off since Nov 20! In consultant parlance-Thanks Kyrie-This is called a "State of Grace") and lack of technological skills when it comes to computer stuff precludes my doing pix and scanning. Hell's bells, I have yet to be successful at posting a single picture here without assistance.

No matter what is in the books...there is a lot of misleading or erroneous info in the "books". Datig is well out dated; Kenyon's wonderful Lugers at Random is likewise showing it's age as new info has become available. Harry Jones, well, Harry has passed on but his book is a good thing to have if one is interested in tracing a thread of information or misinformation. Jan's books are the best on the subject but he will tell you that they contain inaccuracies. Bender's books are likewise very valuable, but have flaws and Sam Costanzo's work, monumental though it may be, is not exactly gospel truth. While I am a vigorous supporter of buying, reading and studying the "books", I never believe that anyone should accept things on face value, simply because they are in a "book".

As a matter of fact, an extremely well known and respected author(one of those mentioned above) has confided to me that at least 2 Lugers portrayed in his book are replicas...that is as in Fakes.Of course, he was absolutely unaware of this at the time he went to press.

Please be intellectually vigorous and challenge prevailing thought when your hypothesis is logical. Merely because a collector or author or, CAVEAT EMPTOR, a dealer, regardless of his reputation, asserts something does not make it so.

My zwei pfennigs, since I have probably pissed off several people with this post.

Tom A

[Pete Ebbink]

I did hear the following from the seller in Switzerland as follows :

" This is my auction and the pouch is real.
Check the book "Faustfeuerwaffen der Eidgenossen" by Host Rutsch if you are able to understand german. The same pouch was issued for the Revolver M1882 and M1882/29. Infos can you find on page 151 in Mr. Rutsch`s book. "

Would anyone have this book that they could scan and send me the file ? I can translate and then post here on the Forum...?

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Pete Ebbink]

Well, being persistent paid off. Thanks to a very helpful guy named Stefan who lives in Switzerland, I have a bit more info.

Here is page 152 (not 151) of the previously referenced book.

Could any one who is fluent in German be so kind as to do a translation ?







Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Ron Wood]

Well my German is pretty rusty but it looks like the paragraph on page 152 says: "Cleaning pouch for the Revolver 82/89 with a brass cleaning rod, grease container, cleaning cloths and ear protection. Brown leather with an aluminum closing stud, on the backside two belt loops..."

Then on the next page it starts out describing the "brass cleaning tool Model 1882/1900 for the Revolver model 1882, 1882/29 and the Parabellum Pistol Model 1900, 1900/06 and 1906/29. Later probably for material and cost savings the cleaning tool was constructed of sheet steel and spotwelded at the neck." No mention on the second page of the "cleaning pouch".

I see nothing there that would indicate that the pouch was ever intended to be issued with the Luger, only the brass or steel cleaning tool.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Ron,

Thanks for taking the time to help with the translation...nothing definitive, there, I guess.

I did hear from Stefan in Switzerland, again, and he offered the following advice :

" Why not ask an old Swiss Officer about the pouch? I was able to talk today with two old men, both had have a Luger M06/29 in the army and both with the cleaning pouches. "

Pretty common-sense aproach to reasearch, don't you think...?

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Roadkill]

I've read this over several times (excellent translation, Mr. Wood), and I think I'm missing something. Is the question if the referenced cleaning kit was part of the original Luger issue? Same as the two matching magazines, grips, holster, grip screws, ect? Or is the question if they had the cleaning kit with the guns when issued? Perhaps I can throw a little more into the deal. Military supply issue is basically divided into expendable and nonexpendable categories. These are further divided into property book, non property book, and non property book but accountable. Using the Luger as an example, the gun itself is a serial numbered property book item listed on the unit's Table of Organization and Equipment (TO&E). It is accounted for by serial number during audit. The holster is a non property book but accountable item. It's not in most cases serialed numbered but is a necessary item for the gun. During audit it would be viewed as serviceable or not, replaced if necessary, but not held to the same accountability as the gun. If unusable it would be thrown away. Not so with the gun. At the lowest level would be the cleaning kit. Necessary, not accounted for, not inventoried, items used up in normal day to day actions, but absoultely essential for the the gun. So if there were pistols, there were holsters. There were cleaning kits with something to hold them in issued to each soldier with a gun. Same as it is now. The same cleaning kits (except the takedown tool) were issued with the 03A3,M1 Garand, M-1 Carbine, and M14. Nothing new there either.

rk

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello RK,

The minor "controversy" arose over whether the leather pouch was designed/issued to hold the cleaning kit (aka putzzeug) or not.

One camp says yes, the other side says the kit was issued to hold loose ammo only and never intended for the cleaning kit.

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Ron Wood]

A goof on my part. The translation for the paragraph on page 152 should be "brass cleaning tool" and not "brass cleaning rod". Putzzeug should have been translated the same as in the second section. Given that, it would appear that the pouch was indeed designed/issued to hold the cleaning tool. What remains unclear is whether it was ever "issued" for the Luger or just carried over from earlier revolver issue and kept around by some of the "old officers".

[Pete Ebbink]

Well, some more info. from another source in Switzerland :

" Hi Pete,

Have noticed your post on the Luger Forum, the leather pouch was issued with the M1882 Revolver and all Swiss Lugers up to 1946, have not seen any pre-1900 marked pouches. Think the earliest pouch I have seen is a 1906 ! The Brass Tool/Cleaning Kit was issued with the M1882 Revolver and all Swiss Lugers up to the late 40's! The leater pouch is "by the book" a ammo pouch, however nobody will carry ammo in a pouch (excepte in combat) so the pouch was dis-used as a
cleaning pouch, this was common practice. The pouch is a ammo pouch - used as a cleaning pouch by Officers and lower ranks issued with a Pistol or Revolver!

Best regards
Andrew Zink

(Staff HQ of the Swiss Army) "

Soooo...maybe both view points are partially or equally correct...?

Regards,

Pete...
<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Navy]

It appears that Swiss GIs are just like American GIs...they take an issue item and use it where it works best regardless of the officially intended purpose.

Tom A.

[Roadkill]

The US compass cases and first aid pouches are the same. Best field expedient use I ever saw was
stacking C ration cans in army socks and tying it to the rear frame of our rucksack, could eat quick without unpacking, also hooking canteens to same by the canteen cap strap. Also used inner tube strips for securing battle rattle stuff. And
sometimes there used to really be a gas mask in the case.

rk

[Navy]

Hey RK,

Did I ever tell you about my M-14 "whippet" brush gun I had done for me in Bien Dien province? Best piece of GI engineering I know of...liberated a M-14 and had poppa san bob the barrel about an inch ahead of the gas cylinder thingee and had the stock cut off about 2" behind the pistol grip. Used some ruck straps as a sling/cradle. Pappa San also braised together a set of 2 combined 20 round mags. The springs were weakened in the heating (?) process so could only do about 32 rounds per mag.

Wore that mammyjammer across my chest when breaking bush..and when we got incoming sniper, I could lay down a convincing base of fire until the "pig" (M-60) <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> moved up and the guys could begin fire and maneuver. It was exceptionally effective on night ambushes, except that I was always blinded by the flash and deafened by the noise. And in a close up firefight, man, did it ever ROAR...they thought they had run into something tough with a MG up front. (Minor edit by admin-JS)

Tales of my "Attack Mule" at someother time.

Tom A.

Still, all in all, not a bad deal for a traded bottle of Jim Beam

[Dwight Gruber]

Just for the sake of completeness--

I ran into a picture of this pouch and kit in Datig, p.317 (in the 1958 revision). The caption reads "Swiss pouch, oiler, ramrod and tool kit (military) for use with Luger Pistol."

--Dwight

[Pete Ebbink]

So I finally got my new Swiss M1882 revolver rig home from Switzerland, a bit off-topic, but adds to the mystery of the leather pouch.

Here is a Model 1882 revolver (2nd. variation), with a holster that has neat holders for 10 spare 7.5 mm rounds, and as a leather pouch that holds the puttzeug cleaning kit and grease can...

Photo credits are those of a Luger Forum member, "Swissdaggers", who was nice enough to sell and ship me this great rig from Switzerland...







Regards,

Pete...

[panda]

Pete,
Are you sure this is the 2nd variation. To me this looks rather like the 4th. As far as I know the 2nd had no wooden grip. (At least mine hasn't got any and so says Ruetch's book.) Anyway, nice buy. I'm looking for one like this too. (I mean with the wooden grip.)

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Panda,

Since we are to talk about lugers, generally, here on the Luger Forum, I have sent you a message to your regular e-mail.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />